JAMES LECESNE (Actor)
JAMES LECESNE (Actor/writer)
James Lecesne and I met at the 1996 U.S. Comedy Arts Fesitval in Aspen (obviously a rich social resource for me). We had often heard each other's names, but had never met. When we did meet, our mutual respect was already in place. Now, our friendship is about maintaining it. James went out to Los Angeles in December, 1996 to perform his one-man show, WORD OF MOUTH, and to begin work on a sitcom pilot he is developing for Fox Television.
JAMES LECESNE: Hello?
ANITA LIBERTY: James Lecesne?
JL: Yes?
Hi, honey.
staying connected with them. Especially in those moments when you're going like, "What is this about?"
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[PHONE RINGS]
Anita Liberty here.
How are you?
I'm all right. I'm in LA.
I know. What's that like?
Um, well, you've been here.
Yeah. But I've never been you there.
It's sort of like getting used to a change in altitude, you know?
Yeah.
You're sitting at a table and suddenly you're having a nosebleed. [LAUGHS] It's like a different culture, you know? And people speak a different language here.
Are you finding people to hang out with?
I mean, you know, it's the planet earth.
Yeah. [LAUGHS]
So there are people here who I can connect withÉit's just finding them and
I know.
It's kind of nutty.
Didn't you go out there and then two days later, you started performing your show [Word Of Mouth]?
Yes. It's crazy.
It was a little insane.
[LAUGHS] Well, first of all, theater is kind of a foreign concept to begin with here.
Right.
Live theater, you know? So it's hard to get people to go anyway. And then, of course, in December, nobody's here.
Right.
So that part has been a challenge. But things seem to be picking up now that January's here.
Well, that's cool. And where are you staying?
I'm staying in a lovely little hacienda up in the Hollywood Hills. It's gorgeous. There's a lovely view.
Nice.
The one thing that I decided [about coming out here] was that I was not gonna stay with anybody. And I must say that one of the sort of outstanding features of this place, is that people here are so generous. You know, saying, "Oh, come stay with me."
But come on, everybody has room out there. I'd be that generous if I had room.
Well, even people who just have couches. People are just very generous in that way with their homes here.
Right.
But I decided that the one thing I was gonna do was not stay with anybody, you know? I was gonna really have my own place so that I could work. Because for me, working is a tonic. It's the through-line. And if I can sit down and just keep writing, I'm fine.
Right.
It's that horrible feeling of feeling displaced and like a guest in somebody's house that's so...
You just can't find your space.
You can't concentrate on your work. And, to me, to be able to deal with LA you have to keep doing your work.
Yeah. I just watched a video of Word Of Mouth. It was amazing. I wish I had seen it live. Are you getting bored with doing it or...?
I'm ready to do new stuff. I'm ready to work with other people.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a wonderful feeling to have created that piece, but I've been doing it, traveling with it, for a long time. And as a writer, you grow. So you become conscious of how I could do things better. Or where I cut corners or where I wasn't as good. I didn't push myself hard enough, you know?
But can you fix that? I mean, aren't there points where you can sort of shape something a little differently?
Well, once the show is set, it's kind of hard to unravel it. It's like making a sweater. If you start like going, "I don't like that," then suddenly you're sitting there with a big ball of yarn, you know?
Right. [LAUGHS]
And doing it here is very different than doing it anywhere else, because people's ability to watch theater is different. They're looking for something completely different than what people look for elsewhere.
Right.
I'm kind of done with this piece in a way. And I think it's time for me to work with other people, too.
Yeah.
You know, when I was doing Boys In The Band in New York, I just felt like it was such a great thing working with other people and working off other people and... I miss it.
In a way, it's scary to have done a successful show and then try to move on to the next step.
Mm-hmm.
Because then, all of a sudden, everyone's looking at you, going , "Well, what else can you do?" And you're kind of like, "You know, I don't really know." [LAUGHS]
But one of the things that I miss about doing my show [in New York] is that sort of delicious terror of trying something that you're not quite sure how to get to yet. That's really so thrilling.
Yes.
Because you're finding it together with the audience as opposed to kind of saying, "Okay, here we go. I know how to get there and I'm gonna take you there."
Yes, yes, absolutely. In some ways [New York audiences] have the highest standards. There is a willingness to go for the ride.
Yeah. They're there to experiment with you, as opposed to "looking for the deal."
Yeah. Oh yeah. I know. [LAUGHS]
That's the fun part of New York. I mean, that's why everybody lives there. [LAUGHS]
So what's going on with your deal with Fox? Have you started doing work on a script?
Not yet. I'm meeting with them this week to talk about ideas and all that kind of stuff.
And there is no writer yet, right?
Not yet. The idea is that we're gonna talk about ideas. And then they're gonna find a writer that I can work with. That I can put the pilot together with.
Do you anticipate that collaboration being a one-on-one kind of thing? Or do you see that person going off and writing it and then you contributing to that script?
I have no idea. I think that a lot of that depends on how the studio is interested in using me. They have other writers that they want to hire and then I'm sure it'll be one of those things like, can I work with this person one-on-one or is it better if I go away and write and they help me orÉI mean, that's the fun of collaborating. I'm clearly on the edge of some unknown here. I wish I had more answers, but I don't. So , for me it's just about getting as comfortable as I can. Just hangin' out on the edge of the unknown and saying, "Okay, we'll see what happens."
The time always freaks me out. ÔCause you would ostensibly want to get a pilot together for pilot season.
Yeah.
So, that's like a month and a half, two months.
Yeah. [CLEARS THROAT] Well, you know, they keep telling me there's time.
You could do it in two weeks if you needed to. But doesn't that sort of freak you out?
I don't know. I mean, first of all, I work really fast. And I believe that time expands to fit the task. If you have two months, that's the time it takes.
Yeah.
And the other thing is that if it doesn't happen exactly that way, it'll happen some other way. They'll use me in some other way. There are things that I want to do. God, there are so many variables. I feel like if I start getting into this idea of trying to control all those variables, I'll go insane.
Right.
The only thing that I can really do is control myself. [LAUGHS] And have a good time. I can't begin to figure out who's involved and all of the billions of players in this scenario. I can only figure out my own scenario.
Having to stay that flexible freaks me out.
Well, that's the game.
Yeah, I know.
I think it's staying focused and flexible. There's a difference between just being totally flexible and sort of just going with the wind. It is about being focused on what it is that one wants to do. And you know, there's no guarantee that I'll make it through. It's just that what I would like to think is that I could get through this with my sense of humor intact.
Right.
And my self-esteem intact. And with, oh, some grace and, you know, and money.
Those are some pretty high hopes though.
There's no point in doing it otherwise.
I know.
I mean, I think all the craziness from this process comes from trying to control everything outside yourself. It's impossible. And, look, in my life, when things work, they work. When they don't work, they don't work. I don't want to be involved with something that doesn't work.
Right.
I want to be involved with something that works.
Right. No, absolutely. But that does take getting yourself to a place where you're gonna be okay with whatever happens.
And meanwhile staying focused on what I would like to happen. What's challenging for me is that I'm in a place where I don't know what the local customs are, you know?
Right.
I'm in a new place, trying to figure something out. But I'm the thing that's the same.
Right.
I've been in my life before. [CHUCKLES] Although, I may not ever have been in LA before...
[LAUGHS] Do you have some close friends out there?
Yeah, I do have some close friends here. There are a few people that I'm close to and that I'm holding onto for dear life. I show up on their doorstep crying or ranting and raving. Those are good people to have around.
What are you doing during your days?
Writing.
You are?
I write all the time.
Wow. That makes me like a little jealous.
Good. [LAUGHS] You know what jealousy is? Jealousy's just an indication that it's something that you want.
What, and you want to have what I want?
Yeah, you want to have what I have, which is writing every day, which is a good thing.
Is it productive writing?
Gosh, yeah. There's no writing that isn't productive.
Okay.
I'm writing a movie, you know.
Oh, cool.
And it just takes a long time. Everything takes more time than you think. So, part of it is just to keep working, you know?
Are you excited about turning people on to your point of view?
That would be an interesting challenge, to be able to influence the way people think. I don't know that I want them to think exactly like me. Although, in certain areas, I think it would probably be a good idea.
[LAUGHS] What kind of television show do you want to make?
One of the things that I'm wanting to do with TV is to build a show around myself in which I'm openly gay.
Right.
Now, I may not be the first one who goes there. And who knows, I may be. That's part of the fun of it, too. It seems like the moment for it to happen. And since I am somebody who is openly gay, I think I'm probably a good candidate for that.
[LAUGHS] It would be better than having them cast a straight guy.
Which is really what they're doing already. I think it's no problem for audiences [right now] because everyone knows that whoever's gay on television, is really straight. So it's fine.
Right.
But I think there's an opportunity right now, especially in the entertainment industry for people who are openly gay. And for them to just be themselves. Homosexuality is not reflected in our culture all that much. There are no people except for k.d. lang and Melissa Etheridge, who are gay on a major scale. And who are proud of it.
Right.
I think that it's probably easier for women in the entertainment industry to come out than for men.
Because straight men find lesbians sexy. And so they can deal with it.
They're not threatened by it in any way. And straight men are always like, why would you want to give up the right to be a straight man? [LAUGHS]
Right.
As if that was something soooo great!
[LAUGHS]
You know, it's not that great. I mean, I'd rather be a lesbian, personally. [LAUGHS]
When I think about your show and think about seeing you on television as an openly gay character, I like thinking about getting to the point where you no longer have to refer to it every episode. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, but first you have to refer to it. I mean, I don't want to make people feel as if they're not represented in this show. I want people to be able to kind of explore their bigotry in an All In The Family sort of a way.
Yes.
[That show] gave people an opportunity to see their prejudices reflected back at them and I think there's a way to do that and have a good time with it.
Right, but what I really love is the thought of you weaving the aspect of your being gay into the fabric of television.
Right. I mean, what we know about TV in terms of what works for a half-hour format is that you create a character that's kind of close to who you actually are. And then you go with it. And, well, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm straight.
Right.
And I'm not gonna go there without my penis. So, hello, America! [LAUGHS]
No one wants you to go without your penis, James.
That's not true.
[LAUGHS]
That's not true. There are definitely people who want me to go there without my penis. But, for me, it's really about weaving [my being gay] into the fabric of the American consciousness.
Right.
And it's not about putting quotation marks around it all the time and always bringing attention to it. It's just about [portraying] people who are gay living their lives and [showing that] they can become successful too.
Yes, yes.
It just seems rare in the entertainment industry that people are really willing to go there.
Isn't it amazing? ÔCause you can sort of get lulled into thinking that we live in an open society.
I never get lulled.
You don't?
No. Because I'm always living kind of outside of it. I'm outside the mainstream. I don't see myself and my life and oh, that word, lifestyle reflected accurately in the mainstream. And so what happens is that I'm always a disenfranchised person.
Right.
So I'm never lulled into thinking like, "We're okay." I'll think I'm okay when I begin to see my own life and people that I love and people that I've lost reflected accurately in the media. And, until then, I'm always aware of my outside status. I mean, as a woman, you must feel that way too...
It's not the best parallel, you know?
Not the best.
I do relate to you in terms of feeling like an outsider in this industry when I pitch a show about a smart woman....
See, you can go in and pretend that you're kind of dumb.
Yeah.
And you can go in and pretend that you don't have aspirations that are intelligent.
That I want to have a show based around someone who keeps bumping in to a desk.
[LAUGHS] Hey, that's a really good idea.
That would sell. That's women on TV. "Oh I lost all the work I was doing on my computer...."
Yeah.
Let's do a thirty-minute show about that. You know, I can't. Maybe it's a similar struggle. I think your task is so much greater.
Well, the conspiracy of silence around it is probably [CHUCKLES] bigger.
Yeah.
People really don't want you to talk about it. You know, especially here.
I know.
I keep saying things like, "Oh, I'm a big queer." And everybody here gives me that deer-in-the-headlights look.
Don't say it! ÔCause then they're all gonna have to admit that they are, too!
Just recently, some industry guy said to me in a meeting, "Well, I just don't see why your sexual preference has to be an issue." I said, "It's not a preference! It's not like I prefer it!"
[LAUGHS]
"It's not like I go, ÔHmm, women, men, women, men." It's not a preference. I was oriented in that direction. It was a given. I just thought it was so funny.
It's really amazing. But when you pitch yourself as a television character, it's not so much about James Lecesne and his comfortability, it's about the marketability of a perspective.
Right. Not to sound too cocky, but a year and a half, two years ago, when I was first approached about TV, I said, "Look, the thing that interests me about TV is being a big queer on TV. That's what interests me. It's an area we haven't gone intoÉto my satisfaction." And I said, "I'm not gonna change. So, I think TV's going to have to."
Right.
"When it does, call me."
[LAUGHS]
"You know, call me, I'll still be here, I'll still be queer. You know, hopefully."
It's about catching the wave and being a part of that change that is so thrilling. It's fun to be part of an alternative movement. But the real fun begins when you take that alternative perspective into the mainstream.
Yeah.
And shape the mainstream. It's not about giving in to what exists already. But changing what exists.
Yeah. And I do think it is about TV changing because TV only follows the trends that are out there proving that they can make money. When Birdcage came out and it proved that it could gross more than any other movie during that period, it showed people who work in the industry that as long as something's funny, it will sell. Birdcage proved that, you know? People thought that was funny. But let's face it, television is not an adventurous art form, you know?
I know.
It's one that's based on commerce and caution. And I think that our job as artists is to keep pushing them further and further.
As things get closer, how much do you feel you'll be able to stand up and say, "This is not accurately portraying..."
Every day, honey. Every day. It doesn't mean that every battle's won, but it means that every skirmish needs to be approached with confidence. And I think that it's really important that one comes at the people you're working with, with respect. They know the business. I don't.
Right.
I know what I think is funny. I think I know what I would like to do. But they know the business. So somewhere in between, we'll probably find a product. I don't have the pretension to think "Oh, I'm gonna go in there and change the industry." I'm just going to go in there as me.
With a standard for yourself and your product.
I don't even know if it's about standards. I have opinions. I have a perspective, a viewpoint. That's not gonna change.
There's a way to express what you want confidently. Even though, in many ways, you're the follower, you have to play the role of the leader. Like, "I know this is gonna work." [LAUGHS]
[LAUGHS] Well, I'll keep you posted.[LAUGHS] We're so funny, aren't we?
Why?
I just like us.
I like us a lot.
[LAUGHS] We're nice.
[LAUGHS] That's why we're friends. That's why we found each other in the midst of all theÉ
Insanity!
Exactly.
