Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:55:04 +0900 (JST) From: "Norman R. Solberg" Subject: Re: BMW: At Least Metzler Wears Faster Than B-Stones Carl Tyler, looking for better tires on Sat, 17 May 1997 18:10:37 -0400 (EDT) said >>I have a '96 R1100RT with OEM Bridgestone BT54 tires, front and rear. The >>mileage on these tires is very disappointing... 6,000 miles front; 10,000 >>miles rear. My dealer says I am doing well to get THAT much out of these >>tires. And Jim (Dr.Curve) Roche responded >Dear Carl, I know what you are talking about when it comes to the B-stones >----- but it leads me in other directiona. > >I really knew I was starting to age some when I begain to use rubber as >cheap insurance. > >Any way the B-stones are really great tires and only the MEZ Metzlers seem >to wear just a little quicker because they are just a little bit more >stickey in full road use then the B-stones. > >They are the only tire that wears faster than a B-stone so thats why I use >Metzlers. They wear the very quickest -- while holding to the road surface >the best, be it wet, dry, fast or slow, leaned way over or going straight. > >Very cheap insurance, this quick wear is, when one needs all the extra help >they can get. If I could not get metzlers then the B-stones would be next. > >Hard compound, slow wear, would be never for the slower reflexers like me. >Best, > >Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche With much less expertise than the good Doctor, let me add that IMHO he is absolutely right. Of all the wear-related parts on a motorcycle, the ones for which you should be MOST ready to choose function over economy has to be tires. My limited personal experience includes four two-wheel accidents, three of them with concussions. (I won't bore you with other details, but they included shoulder rotator cuff.) That has led me to ride with considerable focus on the fact that, at best, there are only a very few square inches on the ground providing traction. Doesn't it make sense to use the stickiest tires you can? I chose the B'stones for my R11RT on advice that, while they clearly wore out fast, they were stickier than the alternatives. Whether it's the R11RT or the tire profile or grip, I dunno, but I feel very comfortable about leaning over and knowing these tires will stick like glue. I'm very happy with them. Jim says Metz's are even better -- and he should know. I never thought the Pirellis on my K100RS were that great, though they wore well, and I was happy to choose an alternative when I had to replace the K. Almost every day I have to slam on the brakes or swerve to avoid some maniac, Also, it rains a lot here. Here in the Kansai region of Japan MOST drivers are very knowledgeable about the presence of motorcycles. Unfortunately a few just don't care. I've got slow reflexes too, added to which I would never say I'm an expert rider, but I'm no dummy when it comes to spending what it takes to avoid another accident. Cheap insurance indeed! All the best, Norm ________________ Norman R. Solberg Solberg International Law Office Maison d'Or Michino, Suite 901 2-31 Kanzakicho, Chuo-ku Osaka 540, Japan e-mail: solbergnNoSpam@NoSpamiac.co.jp Web site: http://www.iac.co.jp/~solbergn/ Phone and fax: (06) 767-4098 __________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:55:15 -0400 From: Richard Bernecker Subject: BMW: Tire Feedback on Michelin Macadam 90's I bought my used R1100RT with Metzeler MEZ2's mounted front and rear. They had approximately 2.5K on them since they had been installed (per the bike mileage noted on the dealer invoice for the install). When I got the bike, the rear MEZ2 was already starting to square off sharply and the front MEZ2 was cupping to the point of obscuring front-end feedback. Tire pressure, as delivered, was 36f/39r, but I do not know what the tires were run at, pressure-wise, by the previous owner before I took delivery of the bike. The MEZ2's were heavy-steering, felt hard, and felt unpredictable due to the rear tire's squaring-off and the front tire's cupping. I couldn't wait to get them off my bike, and I didn't - I replaced them within 300 miles of my having taken delivery of the RT. Yuck. I have had this experience with MEZ2 rears before (excessive squaring- off), and decided to not even bother with the MEZ1f/MEZ2r combination. I elected to try a set of the Michelin Macadam 90's, since my dealer cut me some $$$ slack to get me to try them and give him some feedback. (My last two sets of Michelin radials, the 59 and 89 series, were abysmal in every respect, so this was a real leap of faith to try the Mac90's..) Well, I just pulled the Macadam90's off the RT with a solid 10K miles on the set. Here are my impressions...... Handling was lighter with the Mac90's than the MEZ2's, and steering was neutral from upright to full-lean. It still took a bit of muscle to get the bike to snap over, but there was no tendency for the bike to want to fall into a turn, or to conversely try to stand up in a turn (unless I foolishly trailed the front brake into the turn too aggressively, at which point the bike would try very hard to stand up.) I did find the Mac90's to provide vague feedback when in full- lean and high-speed mode, altho they never did anything ugly and they did stick to just about any road surface and at any lean angle I could muster... Just don't expect any real feedback when pushing the tires.... The front Mac90 started cupping at 3.5K miles, and maintained 1/32's worth of cup (low-to-high delta) for the remaining life of the tire. The rear tire started life with a fairly flat profile, but did not actually "square off" for the life of the tire. The Mac90's handling characteristics were reasonably consistent for the life of the tires, except for the last 1K miles or so when the cupping on the front tire began to finally intrude upon the feedback from the front end. When I pulled them off, the front tire had about 2/32 left (started NoSpam@NoSpam 5/32), with about 1/32 depth left in the cupped sections, and the rear tire had 5/32's left (started NoSpam@NoSpam 12/32's, if I recall correctly). Most likely, I could have gotten another 2-3K out of the rear tire, but I was happy with the 10K that I got and I wanted to replace the tires as a set... All in all, I am pleased with the performance of the Mac90's. I ran them fairly hard on occasion and they never did anything ugly in terms of losing traction or misbehaving. They didn't square off or have any negative impacts on the handling of the bike throughout their useful lifespan, and their lifespan turned out to be longer than I expected. I did raise the tire pressure from 36f/39r to 40f/42r about half-way thru their lifespan; I wonder what the impact would have been on the front tire's cupping tendencies had I run the higher pressures from the start..) They rode well, were quiet, and stuck well (even if they were less than stellar at providing full-lean road feedback). In short, I'd buy them again without any hesitation if my choices were between the MEZ2 and the Mac90's. As a final note, I replaced the Mac90's with Bridgestone BT54's (in the interest of again trying something different). I'm still getting to know them (with 800 miles on them so far) but what a difference in handling characteristics.. MUCH lighter steering than the Mac90's or the MEZ2's - the big RT feels like a middleweight on these things. We'll see how well they last and stick, but so far the BT54's are my favorite in terms of the flickable "feel" that they give the RT. They are much noisier than the Mac90's (the front tire has a weird howl at 70mph which is quite loud), but I can deal with that if they stick and last as well as they turn.... Pink keeps telling me how much I'm gonna love this tire, and as much as I hate to admit it, he may be right if first impressions are accurate.... Then again, the BT57's are starting to sound really interesting.... :-) ======================================================= Richard "VI,CE" Bernecker SoD #1, BOOF #84, NOT #7 Elizabeth City, NC, USoA rbernieNoSpam@NoSpamecsu.campus.mci.net "What's the use of having luck if you don't use it?" ======================================================= Bridgestone makes two new dual compound tires that will fit your bike. A BT56 and a BT57. Check out http://www.bridgestone-tyres.com/nextrev.htm. I'm now running the BT57 rear on my RSL and after about 4,000 miles, it's hardly showing any wear - a new world record for me on my R1100RSL's. Best mileage I've ever gotten out of a rear tire is 5,200mi, but I do ride very hard. Little question this ones going a lot more than that. It gives me a little better stiction than the BT50's I was running and seems better grounded under hard riding. At speed and straight down the road, the tire feels solid, with little of the wiggle or slip you normally feel with a harder compound tire at speed. IMO, worth a try. I think this is a good tire. - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. -------------------- http://www.ibmwr.org/pastevnt/reports/reind96_cornett.htm had a good visit with Rita (a friend from college days) that night and the next morning I go into BMW Orlando for new tires. I will see if the highly touted Dunlop 491s are really that great. (8,000 miles later I concluded they are.) The service was efficient and they took me right away. My buddy Rick Landi was working there for a little -------------------- From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon May 19 23:08:32 1997 Return-Path: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by slack.net (8.8.4/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28498 for ; Mon, 19 May 1997 23:08:30 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA24524; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA24516; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14154; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:48:27 -0400 Received: from StarNet.azstarnet (usr19ip53.azstarnet.com [169.197.20.53]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.3-p/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18085; Mon, 19 May 1997 19:48:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199705200248.TAA18085NoSpam@NoSpammailhost.azstarnet.com> From: "Rob Lentini" To: , "IBMWR" , "Oilhead" Subject: BMW: re: Tires and pressures Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:18:33 -0600 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: "Rob Lentini" Errors-To: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ Erik asks: ==== Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:36:45 From: Erik Miner Subject: BMW: Tires and pressures Dear Prezzes: I've been following the tread about tire wear, stickeness etc and noticed that a few folks are mentioning bumping the pressure up in the high 30's to low 40's !! in order to extend tire life/mileage. Maybe I'm wrong here but wouldn't these kind of pressures extend tread life but reduce both center and sidewall contact?? I know on a car if you raise the pressure to high you will certainly reduce tread life and the tires wear funny. I've always gone with the manufactures recommended settings. I'm sure if one bumps the pressure up on a bike tire that it will wear longer, I mean there's less tire then in contact with the road but I don't think I want less contact but as much as I can safely get with out under inflating (it's own set of problems). Any opinions??? ==== Opinions on this list? You've got to be kidding. Here's mine. :-) FOLLOW BMW RECOMMENDATIONS For oilheads this is 32/36 front and rear for solo light duty. The manual specifies increased pressure for heavy loads that SHOULD NOT be used for light duty. In fact, the Metzeler tire catalog says that the 120/70-17 should be run at: Solo 2 Up Lt 2 Up Hvy 32-34 34-35 34-36 And the rear 160/60-18 at: 34-36 36-38 38-40 And, as usual, both Metzeler (and Dunlop in different words) say: "High speed riding or high road temperatures may require a moderate increase in pressure, not to exceed the indicated maximum cold pressure on the sidewall." (See above table) Overinflating beyond this "might" protect rims from damage, but the reduced contact patch and lessening of the desired ideal carcass heat build-up will contribute to LESS tire mileage and stick plus less predictable traction on sandy or less than ideal surfaces. Now then, this is NOT my opinion but the WORD from Metzeler and other reputable tire companies. Tire pressure dictates carcass deflection and internal heating. Some heat is GOOD to make the rubber pliable (sticky) and absorb bumps. Too much heat, of course, may lead to carcass/tread failure. However, you can't go wrong staying with your owner's manual recommendations. FWIW, every time I've attempted to increase tire mileage, by increasing pressure beyond BMW specs, it has resulted in LESS mileage. That's my experience anyway. Here we go!!!!! Don't shoot the messenger. Call Metzeler at 610-458-9662 or 610-458-9663. :-) Rob Lentini Tucson, AZ (520) 790-8865 '94 R1100RS Three Flags 97 #205 MSF, BMWMOA, BMWRA, IOC, AMA Candidate for BMWMOA Director "Let's RIDE more and politic LESS" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 01:15:06 1997 References: <199705210315.UAA13316NoSpam@NoSpammailhost.azstarnet.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:49:56 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Michael Fletcher Subject: Re: BMW: Re: tires and pressures (vs. rider weight) Reply-To: Michael Fletcher I love it when people tell me that although something works for me it's wrong! I just changed my front ME33 at 14,105 miles of running at 36 lbs pressure; My back ME88 Marathon has 9,000 miles at 41 lbs and is wearing great. No cupping on either tire and the tires handle great up to my max of 105 indicated on some nice Arizona backroads. At these pressures my speedo is only 3 mph fast as indicated on stationary radar. No surprises in handling the twisties either. I have nothing but praises for the ME33 front and the ME88 is turning out to be a real soldier. 7,000 - 8,000 mile tires? Not for this meander! I should feel guilty about this working for my 210 lbs weight? I'm headed out in the morning for a 640 mile leg to Leemore, Calif. and will check out some of those California snakes in the road to see if they're any nastier than the Arizona variety. 'Ride the one that brung ya!" Michael Chandler, AZ R 100 Mystic "Memsahib" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 12:52:56 1997 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:04:09 +0200 From: Bob DeHaney To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Tires Reply-To: Bob DeHaney I see a lot of orange/grapefruit comparisons here. You guys riding ME33 on R90 tires for instance, ought to know that this a completely different tire technology(not to mention suspension) from modern tire design,i.e. BT50, BT54. By the way the only tires officially approved standard in Germany by the BMW factory for the KK1100RS, K100RS or K1 are the sizes Front:120/70 ZR17TL and Rear: 160/60 R18TL for the following manufacturers:Bridgestone BT50F and BT50R or BT53F and BT53R or Metzler Z1 Front and MEZ2 Rear or Michelin A89X Front and M89X Rear. An approved alternative is the Bridgestone BT54F 120/70 ZR17 TL Front and BT54R 160/60 ZR18 TL Rear which is what I ride and I'm very happy with them. Recommended pressure is 2.4 bar front and 2.9 bar rear (figure out what it is in psi). The BT56F and BT56R are currently being certified. If the cops pull you over for a safety check here, you better have a copy of the BMW approval certificate if any other tires are listed on your registration than what you have on the bike. Anything else and you got 1, a ticket, 2, the type approval for your bike is erased, extinguished, whatever, which means 3, they take your keys away and you walk home to get the trailor. As you can see this limits tire discussions. Bob in Munich '94 K1100RS From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 13:38:02 1997 From: BMWDALENoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:06:02 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Re: Tires and pressures, too many opinions??? Reply-To: BMWDALENoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Guys, If you look on the sidewall of your tires you will see the manufactures max recommended lbs psi. Gosh, mine reads 42lbs at max load, thats where I am mostly, at max load - I'm 6'2" - 260lbs. - and bike plus gear and sometimes passenger & trailer. At Morganton MOA 96 National the BMW NA representative ( not Frank , can't recall his name ) I spoke to recommended 40lbs front & rear. The Michelin guys at same rally, recommended 42lbs front & rear. The mechanic that services my bike recommended raising to 41lbs. So I tried it and I got over 15,500 rear & 16400 front. Way better than the 6500-7500 I was getting. I still bent the front rim with 41lbs in it!!! And I do have a $20 gauge & use regular air, available everywhere. Where do you get "Nitgeron"? I carry my daughter on the back, so I wouldn't do anything I believe is unsafe or stupid. It works for me!!! No noticeable change in traction or handling, at least the way I ride. I bought my bike to tour with thats why its a BMW not a 140hp Jap canyon carver. Although it does shine on US 129...... Any more opinions??? Dale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DALE HIBBS ---- NAPLES, FLORIDA ---- U.S.A. ---- 96 R1100RT -- 92 R100GS/PD -- 91 R100 -- BMWMOA #29776 -- BMWRA #20685 -- OILHEADS #559 -- IBMWR -- FLORIDA SUNBEEMERS -- POVERTY RIDER (make payments on a new BMW and you know poverty) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 10:29:15 1997 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:13:33 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Erik Miner Subject: BMW: Tire pressures for R1100RT Reply-To: Erik Miner Hi all: I spoke with a dealer yesterday who told me BMW has just issued a service bulletin to up the recommended tire pressures by 3-5 lbs over the recommendations in the owners manuel.(one of his techs had just gotten back from a factory service training session) In the manuel for my 97 RT it's 32-36.5 for one up. so I'll go to 35-39.5 and see what it's like. Regards, Erik Erik Miner MOA #77368 97 R1100RT From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 11:37:30 1997 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:02:12 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Dana Priesing Subject: Re: BMW: Tire pressures for R1100RT Reply-To: Dana Priesing Another data point: I've been running Battlax BT-50s on my K11RS's 3-spoke rims at 41/44 psi cold. Getting excellent mileage from the tires this way: 12,500 and the rear's done, but the front's still going. I make sure the tires are heated up before pushing things in the corners. Did give the front rim a fat lip last winter on a pothole with a steel beam exposed inside, but it was such a strong hit that I don't blame the inflation. Actually I suspect the high psi prevented more extensive damage. I imagine what might have happened with 36 psi in that front tire. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 97 K11RS At 10:13 AM 5/21/97, you wrote: > >Hi all: I spoke with a dealer yesterday who told me BMW has just issued a >service bulletin to up the recommended tire pressures by 3-5 lbs over the >recommendations in the owners manuel.(one of his techs had just gotten back >from a factory service training session) In the manuel for my 97 RT it's >32-36.5 >for one up. so I'll go to 35-39.5 and see what it's like. > >Regards, >Erik >Erik Miner MOA #77368 >97 R1100RT > > > > From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 14:04:27 1997 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:24:05 +0200 From: Bob DeHaney To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Want comments on BS BT54 & BT57 Front (K11RS) Reply-To: Bob DeHaney Richard, I'm told that the BT56 and the BT57 are closer to being racing tires (sticky but soft) and that lifespan is relatively low. The BT54 is more a real sport touring tire and the BT50 is more touring. As you might have seen in my thread, only BT50 and BT54 are currently approved for the K1100RS by BMW here in Germany. Bob in Munich '94 K1100RS ' > The difference in price here in Canada is 2 or 3 dollars; the BT54 > (showing bars on the K) is marked as a sport touring tire; the BT57 as > Ultra High Perf. Street. Is there much difference in tire life/wear? I > want to order one very soon. > Richard Ward > Fredericton NB Canada > 1993 K1100RS > 1997 Honda CR-V > NB Agriculture & Rural Dev. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 21 17:26:03 1997 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:37:18 -0700 From: L G Burnett <"buddyburNoSpam@NoSpambellsouth.net"NoSpam@NoSpamBellsouth.net> To: Bob DeHaney Cc: BMWMCNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Tires References: <199705211606.SAA18572NoSpam@NoSpamuser.muenchen.roses.de> Reply-To: L G Burnett <"buddyburNoSpam@NoSpambellsouth.net"NoSpam@NoSpamBellsouth.net> Bob DeHaney wrote: > By the way the only tires officially approved standard in Germany by the BMW > factory for the KK1100RS, K100RS or K1 are the sizes Front:120/70 ZR17TL and > Rear: 160/60 R18TL for the following manufacturers:Bridgestone BT50F and > BT50R or BT53F and BT53R or Metzler Z1 Front and MEZ2 Rear or Michelin A89X > Front and M89X Rear. > > An approved alternative is the Bridgestone BT54F 120/70 ZR17 TL Front and > BT54R 160/60 ZR18 TL Rear which is what I ride and I'm very happy with them. We had a Bridgestone rep come in for our local club meeting this month. Some of the info he passed on is there are different spec Bridgestone tires in the same size, model number, and tire rating. One instance in particular is a Bridgestone tire specified for VFR Hondas and for the R1100 series BMW. The tire size and rating are the same, and even the Bridgestone model is the same, but the rubber compounds are quite different. It appears the only way you can tell a difference in the tires is the Bridgestone serial number. Many of the bike dealers aren't aware of this, so you might want to be extra careful buying Bridgestone tires, especially if using mail order. Buddy Burnett Nashville, Tennessee From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu May 22 01:34:25 1997 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:22:42 -0700 From: Mark Gensman Organization: Business Resource Group, Inc. To: BMWMC mailing list Subject: BMW: Tires Reply-To: Mark Gensman After wearing out my first Metzeler ME 55 rear tire at 2800 miles, I went to a Dunlop K591. It lasted 4,000. I just visited with my local tire dealer and he told me he was sure the ME 55 was a second or a "blem" which he said the factorys use frequently. He said I should get at least 7,000 out of a ME 55 and recommended it over a Dunlop. I was ready to go back to ME 88's and just keep the speed down. I bought the ME 55 and I'll see how it goes. At $165.00 I can't afford to keep putting tires on the bike every other month. If this one goes away I may try the Bridgestones or Michelins. This is getting way to spendy. -- Mark Gensman MgensmanNoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com 95 K1100LT "You're never too old to rock and roll" K-Whiner #51 "The Green Hornet" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat May 24 11:28:05 1997 From: Darryl Richman To: "Malcolm A. Meyn" , "'L G Burnett'" <"buddyburNoSpam@NoSpambellsouth.net"NoSpam@NoSpamBellsouth.net> Cc: "BMWMCNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com" Subject: RE: BMW: Tires Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:58:14 -0700 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: Darryl Richman > L G Burnett[SMTP:"buddyburNoSpam@NoSpambellsouth.net"NoSpam@NoSpamBellsouth.net] writes: > The general explanation given by the tire rep is the design was to > meet > specs required by Honda. The problems came to light when R11 BMW > owners > were wearing out tires in under 2000 miles. With a little checking, > it > was found the Beemer rider mistakenly had the VFR tires mounted. Like > I > said, the tires are the same size, model number, and speed rating. > > I can only guess the tire series for the VFR is a much softer compound > > for a bike that is more sport oriented. Another post in response to > my > note said there is a letter suffix on the VFR tire, but I doubt the > average dealer or rider is aware of it. Our local dealer was at the > meeting with the Bridgestone rep, and he was unaware of the VFR tire > series. This is absolutely right, Buddy. But, not only are most dealers not aware of this, apparently most distributors aren't either. If you recall back to my Tres Amigos story, you may also recall that Steve wore out his front tire half way through. He was surprised because he thought he had plenty of tire tread at the begining of the trip. It turned out that he had a VFR tire on his R11RT. The guys at RPM in Ventura knew about this problem and pointed out the solitary G that was molded into the sidewall of his front tire. I believe it was directly behind the big word RADIAL. When he got back to Seattle, he pointed this out to the parts guy at Cascade BMW. He was unaware of the issue, but after looking in the parts book, he then looked at his stock: they all had G's. So, they all got returned for the correct tire. When the new tires showed up, they had G's on them, too, so they had to have a discussion with their distributor. Naturally, a BMW dealer doesn't look at the VFR application number. Bridgestone puts the suffix letter in an odd place on the tire. The distributor also doesn't look for the application either. It's a bad situation. --Darryl Richman Writing from the Emerald City in the Greyt Pacific NorthWet 1994 BMW R1100RSA "Wunderrad" AMA BMWMOA BMWRA 1961 BMW R60/2 "Sleek Black Beauty" IOC VBMWMO WSBMWR From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat May 24 17:01:23 1997 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:35:21 -0700 (PDT) To: David Brick From: Shibumi Subject: Re: BMW: 10% Rule Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Shibumi At 09:54 AM 5/24/97 -0700, David Brick wrote: >On Sat, 24 May 1997, Shibumi wrote: >> Sorry about more tire pressure stuff but I recently lost all my files *and* >> I'm a math idiot. Would appreciate confirmation on my application of the >> rule: If I got 38 psi cold, then I don't want to see more than a 3.8 psi >> increase in pressure when the tire's warm. If the reading when warm is 41 >> psi, I'm o.k., according to the rule, right? Or not? David: >Yes, you got it right. If the tire pressure increases about 10% when the >tire warms up, the cold inflation pressure is correct. > >If the tire pressure increases more than 10%, then the cold inflation >pressure was too low. If the tire pressure increase less than 10%, then >the cold inflation pressure was too high. Cool. After 8 mos. of reading seemingly thousands of tire pressure posts and still eating up a rear tire in less than 4k mi., I have finally acheived Idiot Genius status. Put on a Dunlop K491 Elite II yesterday over in Salem. Would like to get a few more miles out of it than the previous tire (which was a different model -- K627). When I left the non-BMW shop in Salem, I putted a couple of blocks, stopped and checked the pressure. It was just over 42psi, according to my Accugauge. I reduced it to 41, cold pressure max listed on tire. Got home some 80mi later and the reading was 43, less than a 5% increase. Will continue to adjust. Thanks, David. -John __________________________________________________ John Arnold Village Idiot 83 R65 Lat44.65 Lon-123.9 BOOF# 100 'Gadfly' Central Oregon Coast BALL#1 IBMWR BMWMOA __________________________________________________ who invites us to remember: "Live by the foma that makes you brave and kind and healthy and happy." -Books of Bokonon, 1:5 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue May 27 11:18:35 1997 From: Thomas Machts To: "'IBMWList'" Subject: BMW: Tires tested by Motorrad Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:40:20 +0200 Reply-To: Thomas Machts In the 11/97 issue of Motorrad they tested 6 touring tires in the = dimension 120/60 ZR17 + 160/60 ZR17 on a Honda CBR600 Here the results briefly in the following form: Discipline tested: = Points/Place 1. Bridgestone BT50F Radial "G" + BT50 Radial "J" Curves: 104/3 Wet: 46/1 Riding Stability: 62/3 Wear: /5 Conti Radial 2000F "A1" + 2000R "A1" Curves:89/5 Wet: 44/2 Riding Stability:44/6 Wear:/6 Dunlop D205F + D205 Curves:85/6 Wet: 39/4 Riding Stability:57/5 Wear:/4 Metzeler ME Z1 + ME Z2 Curves:104/2 Wet: 36/5 Riding Stability:69/2 Wear:/2 Michelin Macadam 90X Curves:100/4 Wet: 44/3 Riding Stability:72/1 Wear:1 Pirelli GT MTR 03 + GT MTR 04 Curves:110/1 Wet: 26/6 Riding Stability:61/4 Wear:/3 Since I get only 4000 miles out of my Metzeler ME55, I wanted to try a = Z2 and called Metzeler Germany. They told me that the Z2 is not tested = for the K100 and therefore cannot be mounted. The same from Michelin for = the Macadam 90X. I know that some of You US Presidents reported = experiences with both the Z2 and the Macadam 90X on the K. Are these = tires legal for K's only in the US? And which dimensions did You use, = since 130/90 17 and 100/90 18 do not exist? The only legal alternative = to the ME55 was the ME 1. Is this a touring tire or even more sportive = than the ME55? Best, Thomas Machts Grenoble-France From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 9 06:54:20 1997 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 06:34:02 -0400 To: Spike , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Jeff Dunkle Subject: Re: BMW: ME88 vs K491 Reply-To: Jeff Dunkle At 01:32 AM 6/9/97 +0000, Spike wrote: > > Between the me88's and the k491's- which tire gives the best grip? Anyone had >experience with both kinds on the same bike? K preferably. I understand the >Dunlops last rather longer, true? > > Spike Cornelius > 85 K100(S) > 65 Triumph 500 > Portland,Or I've had both on several different BMWs. While the Me88 seemed to offer a bit more grip to me, I've never been able to outride the Dunlops to the point where I'd go back to an Me88/Me33 combo again. And I seem to get 1 1/2X to 2X the mileage from the Dunlops vs the Metzlers. Jeff Dunkle Monroeville, PA 412-374-1231 jdunkleNoSpam@NoSpamworldnet.att.net Boof #17, K-whiner #41, SoD #8 President, Four Winds BMW Riders of Pittsburgh ABC, AMA, BMWBMW, MOA, RA, RBR '81 R100, '86 K75T From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 14:24:04 1997 From: Tom Nash To: "'bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com'" , "'steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com'" Subject: Re: BMW: Tire Sealents Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: Tom Nash Steve, >Personally, I wouldn't ride on a repaired tire any further than I = thought I really had to.< A friend of mine used the tire sealant in a can to repair a leak, and = insisted that the tire was permanently fixed, despite my objections. = About two days later, we were riding on an Interstate, him in front, me = in back, and his "repaired" tire blew at 70 mph. It was the rear, and = his bike went 45 degrees one way to 45 degrees the other, and back = again, and again, with his wife holding on for dear life. I will never = forget the sight of that bike swinging wildly from one side to the = other. Being behind him, my face shield was splattered with the residue = of the tire sealant. After he got the bike stopped, we pushed it to the next exit, and he and = his wife sat in a restaurant for a couple of hours while I went home and = got a trailer. We later determined that the tire split open at the = original puncture hole, and decided that it was because the tire sealant = does not do anything to glue the rubber back together again as a plug = does, the sealant simply fills the hole. >I think if you're going to use this stuff to limp home, it's probably = going to be fine. I really don't think it's wise to just run the stuff = in tubeless motorcycle tires for long though.< I agree :) Tom Nash '94 K1100RS San Francisco From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 15 19:34:42 1997 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:23:56 -0700 From: Ayla and Jim Douglas Organization: Ayla-Fine Art To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Cc: tchilderNoSpam@NoSpamsybase.com, tdcNoSpam@NoSpamwell.com Subject: BMW: Mixing Bias & Radials Reply-To: Ayla and Jim Douglas Tom Childers responded to "Spike" that he could not see why it would be bad to mix a bias ply front with a radial rear, and provided and example of his doing this: "As long as they are the same brand, this should be okay. For example, I've run Metzler ME33 front and Metzler ME55A 140/80/17 MBS on the rear. MBS stands for Metzler Belt System, which is apparently a radial configuration. Your dealer should have an opinion, and you can always ask the tire manufacturer. They pretty much all have web pages these days... - -tdc" Firstly, the 55A is not a radial as-I-understand their terminology. All Metzeler (maybe that is it, he is using Metzlers not Metzelers?) use an R designation to denote their radials ie: 160/60ZR18 for the radial rear for a K1100RS, 120/70ZR17 for the front. I Believe the Metzler Belt System is still a Bias ply steel belted system....though surely not a radial... Secondly, I have been taught that mixing radials and bias ply tires was bad due to their significantly different deformation characteristics while in use. The radial deform more, hence the reason it took so long to develop a sidewall stiff enough to make them practical street use...this then would cause significantly different handling characteristics and also cause the bias ply to heat up due to excessive heat (at least this is what I was always told by auto and motorcycle tire people....) Before trying to keep the front bias and adding a rear radial, follow the last tow sentences....Check with the dealer and the tire supplier.... Safe riding, Jim Douglas jdouglasNoSpam@NoSpamvisionnet.net 93 K1100RS mine 96 R1100R hers From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jun 26 13:39:04 1997 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 13:11:46 EDT From: Tom Coradeschi To: Eric VanDenHoek , The Internet BMW Riders Subject: Re: BMW: 85 k100rs tires-not best tire! Organization: Skylands BMW Riders Reply-To: Tom Coradeschi Eric VanDenHoek: >what is the largest rear tire I can put on my bike. I now have a 130 90 >17. What is the best size to put on? I have a 110/90 18 on front. TIA The 140/80 will fit, although it may require a thicker spacer between the wheel and hub (dealer has 'em). tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 27 12:55:01 1997 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:36:25 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Michael Fletcher Subject: BMW: Avon AV34 Gripster Reply-To: Michael Fletcher What kind of mileage are sane (anyone qualify?) riders getting from the AV34 Gripster-H? I have 12,400 miles on my ME88 and its ready for changing. Because I'm anticipating about 10 percent of use on gravel roads during the life of the next rear tire I'm looking at the tubeless Gripster which the R 1100 G/S uses. It is available in a 140/80-17 which is the correct size for my R 100 Mystic. I was surprised to see in the Haynes R 100 Twin manual that the pictures illustrating a tire change were showing an Avon AM24 Gripster being mounted on a mag wheel. I had always thought of the Gripsters as a dual-sport tire. After seeing the Rooz and other wheel those GSs through Death Valley at speed I don't believe that I will have any traction problems with the Gripster on pavement. Michael Chandler, AZ R 100 Mystic From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat Jun 28 12:39:37 1997 From: spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 09:28 PDT Subject: BMW: Radial/bias tire mixing To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com A short while ago I posted a query regards using radial rear with bias front tires. The responses were to ask my dealer("only use matched sets from one mfg") or ask the tire companies. While browsing the Bridgestone site I found the European tire fitment regs-to condense- bias front/radial rear is legal in europe. Of course, if you do it, they are not responsible for any problems. Spike Cornelius 85 K100(S) 65 Triumph 500 Portland,Or From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat Jun 28 23:53:46 1997 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:45:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Thomas E. Haynes" To: spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Radial/bias tire mixing Reply-To: "Thomas E. Haynes" On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com wrote: > > A short while ago I posted a query regards using radial rear with bias front > tires. The responses were to ask my dealer("only use matched sets from one mfg") > or ask the tire companies. While browsing the Bridgestone site I found the > European tire fitment regs-to condense- bias front/radial rear is legal in > europe. Of course, if you do it, they are not responsible for any problems. > I ran radial rear and bias front on my Concours with no ill effect. YMMV. Regards... Tom Haynes Murfreesboro, TN From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 29 13:26:14 1997 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 13:53:18 To: Mark Gensman From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: BMW: Tire patching Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Dave Thompson At 07:58 AM 6/27/97 -0700, Mark Gensman wrote: > >Jumped on the scoot Friday for a lunch date and discovered a lovely flat >rear tire. Aired it up and went for a couple of hours. After getting >back home I inspected closely and discovered a screw in the center of >the tire, a brand new Metzeler ME 55. I called around and one shop told >me they had a new trick way of plugging the tire from the inside for >only $22 and that the tire worked as good as new. Once again, having >more money than brains, I replaced the back tire with an ME 88. (I >figure if the bike won't go over 130 no matter what the speedo says, why >use a V rated tire?). Do any of you know anybody who recommends fixing a >leaking tire and riding as usual? Can these new tubeless tires be fixed >reliably? I paid $166.00 for that stupid tire that went 400 miles. First >flat tire in 18 years and 125,000 miles so I guess I can't complain too >loudly. > Personal experience: Picked up a nail in rural Cape Breton one Sunday morning. Used the OEM BMW Tubeless tire repair kit (Wonder why they supply that?) to effect a roadside repair to the tire. Changed the CO2 for air at first service station I came to. Rode home, about 250 miles. Took the tire to a tire dealer, had it inspected, and was told the plug was secure. Finally changed that tire in Denver, CO. some thousands of miles later. Once again inspected the plug...still secure and apparently still safe. Personal experience. YMMV. This thread is deja vu all over again (again!), and the last time it surfaced, I was not the only one to admit they had faith in a good repair of a small, clean penetration on the tread surface. Then again, I've been accepted for G.O.B. membership. Cheers, Dave T. '85 K100 (But I don't whine!) ***From Beautiful Berwick, Nova Scotia*** GOB #14 *** The Apple Capital of the World *** Boys will be boys - And so will a lot of grown men....Kin Hubbard "So many idiots, so few comets!" Do it right - Do it once... From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 29 15:26:33 1997 From: BMWgsRiderNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:09:04 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: How long to break-in new tires? Reply-To: BMWgsRiderNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Stephen Borgrstom asks how many miles are sufficient for a new mc tire to break-in... My experience is that 50-100 miles are required to scuff-off the mold release compound and all the internal fibers to stretch to their normal size. You may/will experience up to 10% reduction in air pressure at the end of the first 100 miles on new tires, due to carcass stretching, etc.; so check the air after the break-in period. Ira Haskell 1996 R1100gsa Lake Forest, California From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 29 15:39:12 1997 X-Sent-Via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Rob Lentini" To: , "IBMWR" Subject: BMW: re: How long to break-in new tires? Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:21:14 -0600 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Rob Lentini" Stephen asks: ===== Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:55:41 -0700 From: borgstrom1NoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (S Borgstrom) Subject: BMW: How long to break-in new tires? We all know by now that new tires are slick and should be treated with care for the first ride. My question is, how long does that first ride need to be? I usually go out for a 5-10 mile spin (mostly as a shakedown run to make sure everything is all right) easing into the curves until the mold release has been scrubbed off and the tires are good and warm. After that I have always figured I was set. So last night I was talking to a rider with two or three years of experience who claimed it took up to 100 miles for a tire to be broken in. This seems to me to be an awfully long time and my own experience doesn't support her statement. In the interest of maintaining an open mind I thought I'd ask the list for comments. ==== The mentioned 100 miles is to allow the rider time to adjust to the handling of new tires. You KNOW how good they feel upon mounting, but it really does take time to acclimate to the new improved handling. I would suggest doing some tight turns at increasing lean angles to scuff in the tread out to the shoulder a ways. Rob Lentini Tucson, AZ (520) 790-8865 (H), (520) 295-6411 (B) '94 R 1100 RS Three Flags 97 #205 MSF, BMWMOA, BMWRA, IOC, AMA BMWMOA Board Member "Elect" "LET'S RIDE MORE AND POLITIC LESS" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 29 20:25:48 1997 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:13:45 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu (jim roche) Subject: BMW: Tire Patch/New Tire/Top Speed Reply-To: jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu (jim roche) > >Jumped on the scoot Friday for a lunch date and discovered a lovely flat >rear tire. Aired it up and went for a couple of hours. After getting >back home I inspected closely and discovered a screw in the center of >the tire, a brand new Metzeler ME 55. I called around and one shop told >me they had a new trick way of plugging the tire from the inside for >only $22 and that the tire worked as good as new. Once again, having >more money than brains, I replaced the back tire with an ME 88. (I >figure if the bike won't go over 130 no matter what the speedo says, why >use a V rated tire?). Do any of you no anybody who recommends fixing a >leaking tire and riding as usual? Can these new tubeless tires be fixed >reliably? I paid $166.00 for that stupid tire that went 400 miles. First >flat tire in 18 years and 125,000 miles so I guess I can't complain too >loudly. >- -- >Mark Gensman MgensmanNoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com >95 K1100LT "You're never too old to rock and roll" >K-Whiner #51 "The Green Hornet" Dear Mark, yes. Use as small a insert pick as possible (5/16 inch) to rough area of hole. Don't use a regular size if your hole was small. Rough up area in carefull manner, two or three full strokes. Remove insert pick. Use a insert plug hook, again as small as possible. Use plug of striptype aprox 1/4 inch by 1 1/2 inch by 3/32. Turn tire so hole is up. Put lots of glue on the outside just before you insert the waiting and prepapared plug. Plug is placed in hook half on one side - half on the other. Glop plenty of glue on plug coating all of it and insert it at once into glue puddle area of hole. Push it fully inside the tire till only a small ammount of strip plug remains in view. 1/4 inch of each side. Remove insert hook. Turn tire down so that any glue that may have gotten into the inside tire will slooze down around the inside plug area. Let stand two minutes with patch still down. Inflate to 30 or so, plug still down. Let stand one minute. And now Most Important Thing. After ascertaining that there are no leakes, and the plug is protruding out its 1/4 inch to 3/8 inch -- clip the plug off flush with the tire. Do this carefully with side clipers of a razor knife. Carefully making sure none of it sticks out beyond the tire surface. Ride the bike a few days at reduced top end (below 100) then after checking the area and seeing all is still in place feel free to open it on up. Best, Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu high performance old twins http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jroche/index.html From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 30 02:23:40 1997 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:07:31 -0400 From: "Timothy C. Bond" Subject: BMW: Arrows ----> ----> ----> To: IBMWR Reply-To: "Timothy C. Bond" >Kevin B. entones... >> It has always been my own observation that the arrows >> on the sidewalls of the tires are oriented to show >> the direction of rotation. And Ed G. replies: >i have heard from a couple sources that it's not only to show the >'initial' direction of rotation, but to assist in remounting the >wheel in the proper direction if it has occasion to be removed... I'm baaack! Whotta trip! But I digress... You know I'm in on this arrow thingy! Ed has it in a nutshell. This is especially true now with the directional sipes built into the tread. (thread that I forget the author of...) Before the sipes, the fact was that the lay of the cord against the rubber takes a "set" when revving (read rear) and braking (front) that needs to be maintained. Similar to your radial car tires when rotating. Forget that your bike may not have radials, but know that bike tires DO have a high rubber content with a memory. If you reverse the memory/rotation now that your tires have work hardened and aged you may g= et a cord separation. The memory starts when the tire leaves the plant, is shipped, and is stored on the rack. As most of you know good tires have a shelf life. The man who taught me to true and prestress wheels, Olympic cycling coa= ch Gene Porteusi, also suggested that I use my bent racing rims to keep/age = my spare tires on and to use split old tubes for use over the tires to keep = UV out. Good racing tires were reddish/brown from the natural rubber over a silk casing and needed to be "set". He was a good coach. And Ed G. also sez: >as a datapoint, the brembo front wheel on the ducati has directional >arrows for this as well... Oblig BMW point: All BMW wheels have those arrows on the rims as well. At= least back to the '50's. They hide them in the beadwell next to the valve= hole. ___________________________________________________ Tim(Bondo)Bond Versailles.KY.USA 606-873-6686 Wire Wheels Motorcycle Service http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels ___________________________________________________ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 30 09:22:52 1997 From: steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:00:33 -0600 Organization: PC Solutions, Inc. To: spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: How long to break-in new tires? Reply-To: steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com wrote: > > At 07:55 AM 6/29/97 -0700, S Borgstrom wrote: > > > >We all know by now that new tires are slick and should be treated with > >care for the first ride. My question is, how long does that first ride > >need to be? > > Metzler says that new tires grow during the fisrt 100 mi. so you should take it > easy and recheck pressures till tire is stabilized. Then boogie down. Spike, All, Where I appreciate the theory offered by the Metzler Rep. Spike refers to, the reason for treating a new tire carefully has to do with the lubricants used to keep the tire from sticking to the molds during manufacturing and allowing the tire to finish seating itself on the rim. These lubricants are not only on the surface of the tire, but are embeded inside the tread and sipes, as well as being trapped in the tire compound itself, at the outtermost mm of the tire. Until that lubricant is scrubbed off, the tire can't offer maximum adhesion. In answer to S. Borgstrom's question, a new tire should be ridden carefully for at least 300 miles before maximum adhesion can really be expected. FWIW, personally, I head straight for a dirt parking lot or road with a new tire to at least get a dust cover before roading the tire. I don't ride a new tire hard for the first 600 or so miles. I've seen too many really good riders fall down because they forgot, or didn't know, about this hazard. IMO, 600 miles of riding a little more carefully than normal is a *very* low insurance premium -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 1 07:57:22 1997 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:38:33 -0400 (EDT) To: Bob Shilling , "Graham K. Rogers" From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: Macadam Problems? Cc: IBMWR Reply-To: Brian Curry At 08:20 AM 6/17/97 -0700, Bob Shilling wrote: > >I'm not familiar with your brand of tires, but the general answer is that >the arrow points in the direction of rotation. With the wheel on the >bike, rotate it till the arrow is at the top. It should then point >forward. The reason is for the tread pattern, which is not the same in >bpth directions. I've never talked with anyone who had them on backwards, >but I imagine it could have quite an effect on handling. Even more than the tread pattern, which on many tires is not directional, there is a lap joint. (Remember that the rubber is not applied as a "circle" and shrunk on, but slabs of rubber wrapped around the form, with a joint. At the joint, one end is over the other.) If it is "reversed" it will tend to "open up" or seperate, if the rotation arrow is opposite what it should be. When it is "correct" the applied forces tend to keep it together. ************************************************************************* * "... if computers were as easy to use as cars, there'd be thousands * * of fatalities every year on the information super highway." * * Lincoln Spector, Computer Currents 4/22/97 * * * * Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA * * The 9.25 cents a minute guy, USA SoD #23 * * * * KGN- Improving Lives Around The World * ************************************************************************* Asterisks (*) stolen from Scott Adams. :):) From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 1 08:33:28 1997 From: Robert Bell - COP To: "'BMW'" Subject: BMW: Tires Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Bell - COP Seems like someone asks about good tires every week or so.... Somebody said MEZ1 front, MEZ2 rear was a good set of tires. I agree. I have also tried the Michelin macadam 90 rear and I like it. I have put over (garble) thousand miles on all of the above. Way over 12K. But I ride real slow. Almost all of your tire wear occurs when you exceed the traction limit and slide (spin, skid) the tire. You can leave a traffic lite faster than most cars and corner faster than most cars without exceeding the traction limit. Ride slow :-) ride smooth. Plan your cornering line well ahead so you don't need to make any harsh corrections to the turn. Grins, Bob From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 1 11:14:08 1997 From: "Pat Roddy" To: "Mark Gensman" , "Robert Bell - COP" Cc: "'BMW'" Subject: Re: BMW: Tires Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:42:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Pat Roddy" Mark responds to Bob's sage advice: > Great advice. However, if I wanted to go slow I would drive my van. The > joy of owning a motorcycle (at least for me) is playing with the limits > of gravity and physics. If you really want a tire to last a long time, > leave your bike in the garage. I know some Harley guys who have their > tires last for five years. They ride about 1,000 miles a year. If we can > send a guy to the moon (or if a guy can moon us) there ought to be a > company that can make a tire that hooks up and lasts. The search > continues.... I'll say it one more time. If you are looking for a tire that "hooks up and lasts", go for Dunlop 491 Tour Elites II. They'll do anything Metz's will, but will last 3-4 times longer. YMMV. Mine gets nearly 20K per tire on a hot LT, with tread to spare. pr From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 2 15:30:16 1997 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:06:25 +0900 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: victorNoSpam@NoSpamcats.ucsc.edu (Victor M. Kimura) Subject: BMW: Metzler a lower profile tire? Reply-To: victorNoSpam@NoSpamcats.ucsc.edu (Victor M. Kimura) Say, after riding on the new Metzlers I'm able to flat foot the R11RT (lowest seat position). I couldn't do this before when I had Bridgestones. Are Metzlers a lower profile tire or did my legs suddenly grow a half inch? If the former, that's one advantage to Metzlers I hadn't read before on this list. Victor ============================================================ Victor M. Kimura Monterey Bay BMW Riders Email: victorNoSpam@NoSpamcats.ucsc.edu IBMWR BOOF #92 Santa Cruz, California LSTC #2 1997 R1100RT (Gambaru) MOA #76804 1992 K75 (no name yet) ============================================================ O ~O My typical finishing position in a < / < / 10K race--behind my wife Karen. \/ \ \/ \ (BOOFdom takes its toll on the aged.) / / From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 2 18:12:17 1997 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:51:07 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Chuck DeSantis Subject: Re: BMW: Metzler a lower profile tire? Reply-To: Chuck DeSantis >Say, after riding on the new Metzlers I'm able to flat foot the >R11RT (lowest seat position). I couldn't do this before when I had >Bridgestones. Are Metzlers a lower profile tire or did my legs >suddenly grow a half inch? If the former, that's one advantage to >Metzlers I hadn't read before on this list. Victor et al... Can 't speak for all Metzlers, but I did compare the heights of the Metzler 33/55 combo with those of the Dunlop 491s as mounted on otherwise identical K1100LTs. The Metz 33 sidewall was a bit more than 1/4" shorter than the Dunlop; the Metz 55 sidewall was 1/2" shorter than the Dunlop. The Dunlops are a 90 series tire, compared to the 80 series Metz. Bad news for inseam-challenged K riders looking for better tire mileage :-( Chuck Chuck DeSantis Crystal Lake, IL From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 08:32:52 1997 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 06:57:07 -0500 From: Lee Norman To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: tires for airhead GS Reply-To: Lee Norman I'm riding a 90 PD and have lots of questions about tires. The bike came with Metzler Saharas which IMHO are about the worst tires ever made. I do about 80-90% of my riding on paved roads and found the Saharas to be ridiculously short-lived (maybe 6K on a rear and 8K on the front if I was VERY gentle), fairly sticky on dry roads, but not to hot in the wet, and exhibiting so much road noise that I think tread howl would be a better description than tread whine. I realize that I'm just asking for flames from Sahara lovers out there, but like I said "IHMO". After several sets of Saharas, I switched to a Pirelli MT50 on the rear and an MT60 on the front. I've been through several sets of Pirelli's and have found that this setup seems to suit my needs better than the Metzler's did, but there's still plenty of room for improvement. They are better than the Sahara's in each of the areas I mentioned except handling on dry roads where they are about the same. That brings me to the point of this post. At Fredericksburg I saw quite a few GS's with Michelin's. Any of you presidents want to comment on them? I also saw quite a few running a radial on the rear with a bias ply on the front. Is this a good idea? Is it OK to mix radial and bias ply? Is it safe? Is it even advisable to put radials on a bike not designed to use them? If radials can be used safely, what about the Metzler Enduro 4? Would anybody who has experience with either of these setups care to comment? In other words - HELP! Whomever said that ignorance is bliss was a liar. In not-so-blissful ignorance, Lee Norman Terrell, TX From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 09:09:58 1997 X-Sent-Via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Rob Lentini" To: , "Oilhead" , "IBMWR" Subject: BMW: re: Dunlop Tires Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:36:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Rob Lentini" Stoner asks: ==== Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 08:34:21 -0700 From: LARRY_STONESTREETNoSpam@NoSpamhp-sandiego-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Dunlop Tires To: bmw-r1100NoSpam@NoSpamcinnamon.com I just mounted D204 front and DT205 rear on my R1100R on the advice of the Dunlop rep at Fred Town. Anybody have feedback on the performance and life expectations of this set up? Stoner ==== I've used 205s front and rear and like 'em! They last me 7-9K. The softer 204 on the front will yield about 25% less mileage but more stick. Rob Lentini Tucson, AZ (520) 790-8865 (H), (520) 295-6411 (B) '94 R 1100 RS Three Flags 97 #205 MSF, BMWMOA, BMWRA, IOC, AMA BMWMOA Board Member "Elect" "LET'S RIDE MORE AND POLITIC LESS" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 09:55:42 1997 From: JosephVmanNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:22:11 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Knee pads for R11GS? Metzeler kudos! Reply-To: JosephVmanNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com At the MOA national I saw a couple of R11GS's with knee pads on their tanks, and they looked great, but I couldn't find the owners to inquire. I recall a discussion on the list about using K-bike knee pads on the GS, and flipping them around backwards....anyone have any info on this? BTW, Metzeler is sending me a brand new Enduro 4 to replace my badly cupped front tire with 5k. Their customer service was excellent, one phone call, no hassles whatsoever. Apparently they are aware of the problem, and tires with certain "DOT" numbers are prone to very accelerated cupping on the front. If your Enduro 4 is showing extreme early cupping you may want to give Metzeler a call. I was planning on switching to Dunlops next time around, but after the excellent service I got with this problem I'm definitely sticking with the Metzeler's from now on. If anyone associated with Metzeler tire reads the list, much appreciation to your company! Joe Maniaci 96 R1100GSA 96 Dinan M3 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 10:42:19 1997 From: "Jim Bessette" Original-From: "Jim Bessette" Original-From: "Jim Bessette" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:13:59 -0600 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Re: tires for airhead GS Cc: lnormanNoSpam@NoSpamswbell.net Reply-To: "Jim Bessette" Lee Norman asked about '90 GS tires. On Jul 3, 9:29am, Ian Schmeisser wrote: > Two words: Avon Gripsters Two more words: Avon Gripsters > You should subscribe to the GS list...you just missed an exhaustive > discussion on the subject. What, the fourth one in 4 months? The FAQ should just say: Use Avon Gripsters! Sounds like you got LOTS of miles on your Saharas. Most people can only claim 3-5K on them. The 90 GS should take the *TUBELESS* AM24 Avon Gripsters. Note that there are TUBED versions and a radial AM33. DON'T buy them. Get the AM24s. Moto Acc Whorehouse (oops) sells them for 77.95 (R) and 60.95 (F). I usually get 7K from a rear, and 14K from the front. Good in dirt, great on the street. (Nothing but knobbies are great in dirt.) Info on the GS list: (From Carl Paukstis) BMW-GS: DESCRIPTION: Dual purpose BMW boxers DIGEST AVAILABLE? Yes ADMIN ADDRESS: listprocNoSpam@NoSpammicapeak.com TO SUBSCRIBE: Message body: "subscribe BMW-GS " LIST OWNER: bmw-gs-ownerNoSpam@NoSpammicapeak.com WWW URL: http://www.micapeak.com/bmw-gs/ Note that we just got mail from the maintainer of the list that micapeak is having problems. You may have trouble subscribing today. -- Jim Bessette | Experiencing | First BMW '89 K100RS/ABS bessetteNoSpam@NoSpamdrmail.dr.lucent.com | BMW evolution | Second BMW '93 R100GS/PD Westminster, CO. USA | in reverse | Third BMW '68 R50/2 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 14:47:13 1997 From: Clarence Dold Subject: Re: BMW: Tires To: mgensmanNoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com (BMW Mailing List) Reply-To: Clarence Dold Mark Gensman notes: > I would have gone with a 491 but my dealer didn't have my size in stock > and I'm leaving tomorrow on a 3500 mile trek with SWMBO so I put the ME > 88 on the back. I used ME88's on my 100/7 and even though I rode like a I had a pair of ME88 front and rear that went about 12,000, then a set of ME88 where the rear still has life, but the front is toast after 7500. I think I drift too much. The ME88 front doesn't stick that well, and sliding it probably wore it out prematurely. I didn't like the K591 _at all_, but I was heading for a set of 491 when the current feet wore out. A Bridgestone tech at Laguna Seca managed to convince me that what I wanted was a set of BF11 Spitfires. Coincidentally, when my front wore out, I wound up at a tire store that had some 591, no 491, but they did have the BF11. They had both a 100/90-18 and a 110/90-18. I took the 110. At $87.95 mounted (no balance weights needed), it is 2/3 the price of the Dunlops. It sticks better than an ME88. The larger size slows up the steering quite a bit, making it smoother for touring (OEM for the K75C), but heavier feeling in quick transition. I only have about 200 miles on it so far, but at the price, what I've seen is good. Mileage will tell.. --- Clarence A Dold - doldNoSpam@NoSpamnetwork.rahul.net - Pope Valley & Napa CA. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 3 22:51:43 1997 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:24:27 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Damun Gracenin Subject: BMW: re: Tires for airhead GS Reply-To: Damun Gracenin Now that those Gripster guys have chanted their mantra again, I'll jump in. Scenario A: If you want mileage, ride mostly road, with occaisional forays into the heart of darkness, get a road tire with good tread. I got 10K rear w/Metzler Marathons, 10K front with Metzler Laser 33. IMHO, the 33 is the Only front road tire for airheads. Excellent traction front, the best possible for a long wearing tire rear. let's call it predictible sliding. And did pretty good in the dirt except in hard core situations, which is why... Scenario B: If you climp humpty hillls, charge through sandy washes, cross swollen rivers, and when on the road wick it like the devil over every mountain pass -- guess what? AM24 Gripsters! If you got 5K on Saharas, you'll get 8 or 9 on Avon Gripsters. I get 5K rear, 10 K front on them, but I ride stoopid hard. -Damun _________________ Damun Gracenin San Francisco R100GS (Redhawk) R75/5 (Sidney Amber) _____________________ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 8 14:12:36 1997 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:32:24 -0400 From: Daniel Quick Subject: BMW: Re: [BMW-EURO] K Tyres again (crossposted - apologies to non digesters) To: Adrian Stone Cc: IBMWR_EURO , IXION , IBMWR mailing list Reply-To: Daniel Quick Adrian Stone wrote: > I had Macadams (50's not 90's) on the KRS last year and thought they > were great. Only problem being that at 10,000 miles and with 3mm tread= > left on the front the handling went to pot (I though it was the head > bearings at first), the rear lasted about 8,000 miles, Wow, as you may have gathered from my post, I usually get 5500 form a a rear and 6500 form a front Pirelli, with an all time low on the present rear of 3500. So your figures interest me strangely, I know from experien= ce that you do like to get a move on, so it can't be that you wibble everywhere at 35mph ;-) Also in comparison to the Metz's on the front they don't fall > into bends quite so sharply and seem more stable at speed and are much > much better when encountering white lines etc. This is very much the plus point on the Pirelli's. > = I was considering the Pirelli's, but > from what you've posted they seem rather soft for day in day out use ! = = Well from what you say yes, I really don't want to compromise too far on the performance mind you, when the Macadams start to lose it at the extremes, are they predicatable, or do I need to start packing an extra pair of knix? > = > Maybe you could by a pair of extra tough Cheg Shins for day to day > stuff and something sticky for the weekends (sir !) Trouble is I tend to ride much the same all the time since I moved out of= the smoke! > = > Well there you are my 10p worth. 25p surely! Thanks > = > ..........and yes I survived the National Rally, met a few others from > ixion and had a good time, I'll try to write it up and post soon, = Please do, I am rather envious - did the MZ make it! oh and > I got a specialgoldforevilbikerscumwithnoisybikesinquitevillagesinthede= a > dofnight award. Congratulations (spit!) > = Safe Riding Daniel Quick = dlquickNoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dlquick Oxford UK Flautist Extraordinaire :-) From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 00:55:48 1997 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:08:33 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Charles Sturtevant Subject: Re: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Balancer? 180 Degrees Apart! Reply-To: Charles Sturtevant Jim, Wheels that are out of static balance vibrate up and down. Wheels that are out of dynamic balance wobble. The weights you saw are the correct cure for dynamic imbalance. CS At 04:00 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Jim Roche wrote: > >Dear Fellow Net Brothers, > >I have a question that I hope to get some responces to. I am stuck in my >ways and very opinionated as many have reminded me but I still want to be >corrected when wrong and I always try to do the same if I see a solid >error. > >To me the following represents a solid error. > >I viewed a machine recently that had had the tires balanced by the newest >Snap-On balancer. I took one look and cryed bullshit. What do you think. > >The bike (a newer BMW) had two weights on each wheel. Both weights on each >respective wheel were the same exact size. The back wheel had two 1 inch >pieces of stick on weight and the front wheel had two 1/2 inch pieces of >stick on weight. > >The two pieces of identical weight weights were then stuck on the rim very >carefully, one on one side of the rim (R) and the one on the other side of >the rim (L) ------ 180 degrees apart--------. > >You have the picture right. Stick one weight on the rim, turn the rim 180 >degrees, stick the other weight on the rim, (but on the other side), and >called the tire balanced. > >They (the owner) said that this is the way to balance the wheel and tire >combo one side of the rim to the other side of the rim as well as one part >of the combo to any other part (traditional). > >I don't see it that way no matter what the machine says. I say that if you >put a weight on a rim, turn the rim 180 degrees and place a identical >weight at that point, that you have not balanced anything but have merely >added weight to the wheel. > >What goes here? Have you ever heard of anything like this. If a wheel is >out of balance and you put two weights on it exactly 180 degrees from one >another you have done nothing to balance the wheel no matter what the size >of the weights or which side (L or R) of the rim you put them on. > >What say you other wrenches? > >Best, > >Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche >jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu >high performance old twins >http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jroche/index.html > > > > From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 01:10:48 1997 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:58:59 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Charles Sturtevant Subject: Re: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Balancer? 180 Degrees Apart! Reply-To: Charles Sturtevant Jim, I should have added that you should never be satisfied with a wheel that has been balanced on a static balance. It should be balanced on a high speed machine that takes into account the dynamic balance (side to side). Otherwise you are going to get a lot more tire wear, even though you may not notice that much more vibration. CS From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 03:00:10 1997 From: "ynotfix" To: " Subject: Re: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Balancer? 180 Degrees Apart! Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:46:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "ynotfix" Jim; Yeah, it could be that the weight needed to be placed in that manner in order to achieve dynamic balance. Most M/C wheel balancing has been/is being done by the static balancing method. Roozbeh's explanation below is exactly why the old way is giving in to the new. The tires we are buying today are manufactured to much closer tolerances than ever before, and this means that the inherent static balance is also much better. Todays wheel is also much more true in form as well as density which means better inherent balance too. Couple these facts together and you can now see that it is possible to have a tire/wheel combo that is statically perfect but needs offset weights to become dynamically correct. Evidently you have just seen theory meet reality! Rotating the tire on the rim 180 deg. should place the balance points across from each other and the weights would then line up to each other, although I think I would prefer the current condition. Tony Angco '96 K1100RS, '96 Triumph Trident 900 '84 Honda XLV750R M/C Krazy " If I can just get off of this (DAMN) L.A. freeway...." Thanks to Spanky and Our Gang for the quote ---------- > From: Roozbeh Chubak > To: jim roche ; bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com > Subject: Re: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Balancer? 180 Degrees Apart! > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:14 PM > > > At 8:00 PM 7/16/97, jim roche wrote: > > > >The bike (a newer BMW) had two weights on each wheel. Both weights on each > >respective wheel were the same exact size. The back wheel had two 1 inch > >pieces of stick on weight and the front wheel had two 1/2 inch pieces of > >stick on weight. > > > >The two pieces of identical weight weights were then stuck on the rim very > >carefully, one on one side of the rim (R) and the one on the other side of > >the rim (L) ------ 180 degrees apart--------. > > > >You have the picture right. Stick one weight on the rim, turn the rim 180 > >degrees, stick the other weight on the rim, (but on the other side), and > >called the tire balanced. > > > >They (the owner) said that this is the way to balance the wheel and tire > >combo one side of the rim to the other side of the rim as well as one part > >of the combo to any other part (traditional). > > > >I don't see it that way no matter what the machine says. I say that if you > >put a weight on a rim, turn the rim 180 degrees and place a identical > >weight at that point, that you have not balanced anything but have merely > >added weight to the wheel. > > > >What goes here? Have you ever heard of anything like this. If a wheel is > >out of balance and you put two weights on it exactly 180 degrees from one > >another you have done nothing to balance the wheel no matter what the size > >of the weights or which side (L or R) of the rim you put them on. > > > >What say you other wrenches? > > > Dear Dr. Curve: > > 'Fraid it is not bullshit. Traditionally wheels have been balanced as if > they were a simple disc (i.e. two-dimensional). But tires and wheel are > now getting so wide/fat that it makes sense to view tire/wheel combo as a > cyclider (i.e. three-dimentional) rather than a disc. In extreme cases if > not properly balanced these fat wheel/tires will actually wobble around the > axis of rotation. The new balancing machines are developed to address > that. > > Not long ago Kari and I were having a discussion about this. He felt with > the wider tires on the K1200RS it was time to look into the option of these > more sophisticated balancing machines. If you need more info, I suggest > you give him a call. > > Regards, > Roozbeh > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Roozbeh Chubak AMA #552002 BOOF #1 > BMWOA #38643 Village Idiot Idiologue > Berkeley, CA BMWRA #21280 '98 K1200RS: "Blue By You" > DoD #6666 '96 R1100GS: "Beau Geste" > ======================================================================= > From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 09:12:42 1997 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:50:50 -0700 From: LMA To: Steve Aikens Cc: jim roche , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Bullshitter. Reply-To: LMA Steve Aikens wrote: > > jim roche wrote: > > > Cuts Where I Want Because I Could............. > > I viewed a machine recently that had had the tires balanced by the newest > > Snap-On balancer. I took one look and cryed bullshit. What do you think. > > > > The bike (a newer BMW) had two weights on each wheel.......... > > ------ 180 degrees apart--------. > > > >........... > > > > What goes here? Have you ever heard of anything like this. If a wheel is > > out of balance and you put two weights on it exactly 180 degrees from one > > another you have done nothing to balance the wheel no matter what the size > > of the weights or which side (L or R) of the rim you put them on. > > You are 100 percent correct. This is bullshit, no matter what the > "machine" says. > I gotta disagree with you guys on this one. I have used the new Snap-On balancer on car and truck wheels a bunch and have found it to be the best at getting a very "fine" balance. Some front wheel drive vehicles are extremely sensitive to tire balance and I have found the Snap-On to be the best at getting the balance close enough to stop those picky suckers from shaking. If I get a wheel that balances out with the wheel weights right across from each other then I know that there is one hell of a heavy spot on this setup, and I will index the tire on the wheel to try to minimize the heavy spot. Separation is good on dynamic balance! I can't picture why anything would be different on bike wheels. As the saying goes " opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one". That's mine. Mark Ayotte Southington, CT. 95 R1100R 81 R100RT (for sale) From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 20:18:02 1997 From: WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:08:18 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Snap-On Wheel Balancer? 180 Degrees Apart! & story.. Reply-To: WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Graham writes: << Not necessarily Jim. You see there's this thing called "Dynamic balance". This is why it's best when balancing car wheels to have weights on BOTH side of the wheel. ---snippity do da--- I'd have to draw pictures to fully explain it, so if any is REALLY interested, email me and I'll do it, then put it up on my web page, but I'm sure Bondo has it in text already some where? >> Hi all, I've been dodging this because dynamic balance was well covered in this thread. But, my name was mentioned so I'll throw in my $.02! First, I'm not a big fan of dyna balancing bike wheels because they're narrow. If a wheel needed much weight in dynamic balancing I would suspect it was out of true. Spinning the wheel SHOULD show that. If it didn't I would dismount the tire, rotate it 180 degrees and try again. That would show if it's indeed the tire causing imbalance and maybe replace it. I static balance to 1/4oz or better and it's good for 99% of the people, IMHO. With wide cast wheels you tape any weight needed on opposite sides of the wheel to keep it, ah, dynamic. Look at your 3 spokers and you'll see that most are done like that. Some very pricey balancers only read to 1/4oz. I'm still waiting for the perfect balancer. It's mostly a time saver to use the spin balancers. At VERY high speeds you should have a good static/dynamic balance at the chosen speed. It will vary a bit due to centrifugal tire expansion. All else being perfect, this helps a bit. Now the story. When I did my thing in Detroit a mechanic had a BIG $$$ cycle tire balancer in his shop to handle drag and road racers. He did all my high speed racey-type wheel balancing to 1/3 gram at the chosen speed. Hard to believe but that's what the readout said. One day he was balancing a big rear dragrace wheel to top end speed and it came loose from the machine and started climbing the walls and chewing up everything around. It ate him up and sent him to the hospital. Yes, he had the safety guard wired up! _______________________________________________ Tim(Bondo)Bond 606.873.6686 3455 Oregon Rd Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles, KY 40383 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com _______________________________________________ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 22 19:26:52 1997 From: Clarence Dold Subject: Re: BMW: 2mm? Toss it! To: burketNoSpam@NoSpamirwin.vetrol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com (BMW Mailing List) Reply-To: Clarence Dold > When in the course of human events a tire measures 2mm (or less) I will > suggest it is in your best interest to change the tire. Yeah...I > suppose you may get a couple thousand more miles out of it, but the Tread doesn't act like tread anymore when it is that thin. It becomes a less flexible portion of a tire casing. It doesn't handle as well, and you "ride off the edge" when cornering, due to the changed profile of the tire caused by the accumulation of unused side rubber. That's the best part about the Bridgestone Dual Compound tires. The sides wear out as fast as the center ;-) -- --- Clarence A Dold - doldNoSpam@NoSpamnetwork.rahul.net - Pope Valley & Napa CA. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 23 11:46:42 1997 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:30:59 -0400 (EDT) To: "Gregory D. Pink" , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Mike Nolan Subject: Re: BMW: Tire valve stem removal help needed Reply-To: Mike Nolan At 02:28 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Howdy, > Does anyone have an suggestions as to how to remove a tire valve stem (and >install one) on one of the three spoke rims? I would like to replace the >whole thing and not just the core. TIA >Greg "Bounce" Pink Pink, If it's the rubber "cone and grommet" style tubeless type, you have to insert the new stem from the "inside the tire" side and that means taking off the tire. I've changed plenty of them out on other than BMW wheels and I just grab them with pliers and pull 'till they break, or cut the back side off with a knife. There is a tool that you stick through the hole in the wheel, from the center of the wheel out, and screws onto the threaded end of the new stem. Spooge the cone with soap and pull until it seats. It has a hinge in the shaft of the handle so you can bend it, and I have seen some that have a "foot" on the handle side of the shaft hinge, on another hinged arm so you can lever it off the inside flange of the wheel if it's a hard pull. There are few different size holes, with different sized stems. I would keep the old stem an make sure that it's match for the new one. I'm not sure what the BMW hole size it, but I think standard is 3/8's My stem tool has disappeared into my Black Hole (TM) tool box. I think the last time I used it was to put a stem into my garden sprayer so I wouldn't have to pump the thing up by hand. YM (or pressure) MV Mike Nolan '95 K1100LT Dallas, GA From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 23 17:24:35 1997 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:55:34 -0500 To: Joseph Luther , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Scott A Klemptner Subject: Re: BMW: Re: bmw-when to replace tires Reply-To: Scott A Klemptner I have tread wear indicators on both the 120/90-18 and 140/80-17 ME55 tires on both the R and K. They are marked "TWI" on the right side of the tire only (as sitting on the bike). I replace when the bar is flush with the wear surface. If your wrench does not know this, maybe you need a new wrench. BTW, I get 10-13 Kmiles from the ME55 on both bikes. Scott At 02:41 PM 7/23/97 +0000, Joseph Luther wrote: > >Larry asked: >> >> I'm not sure when my tire should be replaced. My rear tire is worn in >> the center not down to the wear marks but only has about 2mm left in the >> center. The outsides look new but even with no wear only have about 5mm >> tread.Is it ok to go until the tread wears down to the wear marks? > >I just replaced the ME55 on the rear of my 97 K1100LT. The center tread >was gone (less than 2mm) and the edges were getting a pronounced "step" >or saw tooth affect. I thought the decision threshould was at 3mm - its >in my owners manual someplace. My mechanic said that this tire DID NOT >HAVE WEAR BARS and that's why I didn't see any. I don't know whether to >believe him on this, but there should have been but weren't any wear >indicators showing. In any case it was definitely time to replace this >tire (7,000+ miles mostly two up at 75+). > >Joe Luther >Nebraska >K1100LT - "EXIT" > ********************************************************************* Scott A. Klemptner sklemptnerNoSpam@NoSpamworldnet.att.net BMWMOA # 3962 Dinky Dozen BMW Riders #13 1974 BMW R60/6 "Slash" bought new in June 1974 NoSpam@NoSpam Cycle Werks of Barrington IL 1987 BMW K75s "Kato" bought new in December 1986 NoSpam@NoSpam Lone Star, Austin TX 1997 Triumph T595 (in August and unnamed) ********************************************************************* From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Aug 6 20:09:26 1997 From: BilZ42NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:58:26 -0400 (EDT) To: lionopt1NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: RE: BMW tires Reply-To: BilZ42NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com X-No-Archive: yes In a message dated 97-08-06 12:52:26 EDT, lionopt1NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com (Jerome N. Harris) writes: << *********** I too have been happy with the Metzler on the R1100RSL having logged over 10k on the Z1 front and Z2 rear with good wear and great traction, although little high speed in the rain which is my one worry based on the rear tread pattern. Rear should go 13 or so. Jerry Harris >> Jerry, Done lotsa 80+ mph interstate in the rain on these tires, no problem. Try it, you'll like it! Bill Z From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Aug 11 19:11:23 1997 From: "Bob Anundson" To: "Kevin Ronstrom" <0004115049NoSpam@NoSpamMCIMAIL.COM>, "bmwmc" Subject: BMW: Re: Tire Date Stamps (No meaningful BMW content) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:56:38 -0700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Reply-To: "Bob Anundson" X-No-Archive: yes ----Original Message----- From: Kevin Ronstrom <0004115049NoSpam@NoSpamMCIMAIL.COM> > >The dating that tire manufacturers put on tires: is it the week then the >year or the year then the week? Example, if the portion of the code >is 446 does that mean the tire was manufactured in the 44th week of '96 >or the 46th week of '94? Trying to figure out the code on my K-bike. The last digit is the year. Regards, Bob From Bob DeHaney <100013.413NoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:38:59 -0400 Subject: BMW: Tire Dots The dots are to be directly opposite the valve stem. They are on the heaviest part of the tire which may be heavier than the valve stem hence still requiring balancing. Bob in Munich '94 K1100RS From rbaumanNoSpam@NoSpamshore.net (Ron Bauman) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:02:11 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: Tire dots In article <199709100041.UAA10075NoSpam@NoSpameureka.vermontel.com>, "Ted Hall" wrote: > >I have always been told to put the tire dot at the valve stem. >Egads, have I been doing this the wrong way for all these years!? >We need clarification here, prezzes You've got it right. Works the same for aircraft tires. The dot should be aligned with the valve stem location. It's the _lightest_ location on the tire. The valve stem is the heaviest location on the tube/rim. The dot/valve stem alignment should result in the smallest balance weights being needed. Ron '79 R100/7 From Lee Freedman Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:07:16 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: RE: Tire Dots At 12:06 AM -0000 10/9/97, Jim West wrote: >It has always been my understanding that the dot on the tire is lined up >with the valve stem.~Jim 1975 R75/6 I retract my former statement. This is true. Investigation reveals (Clymer's manual, page 461 (fig.43) as follows: a colored spot near the bead indicates a lighter point on the tire. This spot should be placed next to the valve stem. Best regards Lee Freedman Buffalo Bozo From BilZ42NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BMW: Dunlop Sportmax tires on a R1100RS In a message dated 97-09-11 00:07:26 EDT, steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com writes: << Craig Littlefield wrote: > > Coming home from Three Flags on my R1100RS I checked my rear tire in > Billings. I had Bridgestone battleaxe BT57s with 6600 miles on them. I > found the rear down to the cord. As there is no BMW dealer in town I had to > get new tires at the local Yamaha dealer. They were very helpful. The only > thing they had in stock was Dunlop Sportmax D204s; 160x60 18 for the rear > and 120x60 17 for the front. Stock is 120x70 17 in the front. With no other > choices I had them put on. I got myself in a rather sticky situation on my little jaunt to meet Don Cameron in SD. My rear BT-57 was not quite down to the wear bars yet but getting there (as Ira pointed out at Paonia). I checked it the morning I left Rock Springs and it still wasn't to the wear bars - I rode to Murdo, SD. When I checked it before riding over to Chamberlain - I could almost see the air in it. It had those sticky little balls of gummy rubber all over it. I think what happens is the harder compound in the center of the tread wears slowly down to the softer compound - found on the outter tread - and it just gets gobbled up. Mileage - 5,735 when it was changed by Sturgis BMW (a damn fine shop, BTW). I haven't yet, but I going back to the BT 50's. I can get 4,000 out of them and I feel much more comfortable than I do on the BT 57's at triple digits. > I put 2000 miles on them getting home to Tucson with some rain and they > handle great. No apparent problems with handling, front end shaking etc due > to the lower profile and associated changes in trail. I was concerned that > they may make the rims more susceptible damage but I hit a few good bumps > on the way home with no damage. > > Anyone else had experience with these tires or with lower profile? Talk to Rob Lentini. He was running Sportmaxes for a while. May still be. He liked them a lot. My .02 worth, Metzlers get trashed on this list a lot, and Dunlops get lotsa praise. When I bought my K11rs, I expected to see my tire bills go up with the MeZ 1 & 2 lopro radials. My 89 K100rs with bias Metzlers gave me a low of 6800 miles ( Me55 )on a rear and a best of 10,300 ( Me99 ) and around 9500 to 10500 on the front Me33. On the K11, my last 3 sets of MeZ redials have given me a little over 13k per set, f & r changed at the same time. That takes me a hair past the wear bars but not past my level of comfort. Current set installed about 6 weeks ago has 8486 miles as this is written and look as tho they will also go the 13k distance. Just before purchasing this last set, I was offered a deal on some Sportmax 205's, saving me about 60 - 75 bucks over the price of the Metzlers. I asked the list for experience with 205's, and all responces led me to believe that if I got 8k out of them I would be doing good. So I'm still on the MeZ's. I am fortunate to have a job that lets me ride a lot, but lots of it is interstate due to time constraints. The MeZ's get lots of 80 - 100 mph cruising, regular blasts into the triple digets, so they aren't having an easy life. The rear tire does get a break over some in that I do probably 95% of my miles solo. What I don't understand is the low milage R11 riders are reporting, ain't those babies lighted than my K11? Seems like the milage should be better on the R11's! Bill Z From medvac Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:29:50 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: Bent Rim "but after a few good whacks with a BFH, with a 2x4 between the rim and hammer, it looked pretty good. We could just barely detect a flat spot on the wheel when he put it back on the spin-balancer." "Now I'm ready to be told by all the knowledgable prezzes out there that it was a mistake to whack that rim, and to tell me that I'm riding an unsafe bike." IMHO you are better off with a more true wheel even after a few good whacks. Just CHECK FOR CRACKS. These alloys are tough but they will work harden; so it is better to use a few big whacks rather than alot of little whacks. Placing the wheel in damp sand will give good support. Good riding Dick M. Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 07:03:30 -0600 From: Steve Aikens Subject: Re: BMW: Tech_Wheels_Aluminum_Huh? Todd McGuinness wrote: > > What say we take a count of all those folks with the 3 spoked > paper(aluminum) wheels that have had to replace them within the life > cycle of their R bikes! >................... > Please use my subject line as I am going to put a filter on it! > > tm > Todd M. McGuinness - ---------------------------- Jon - Look what's baaack - ---------------------------- Todd, This has been done to death on this list. Ray Mandel took this issue to extremes a couple years ago unsuccessfully. BMW takes the position that the wheels were intended to bend under the certain circumstances to absorb front end impacts and protect the rider. They cite this as a safety requirement because of the tele-lever being bolted to the engine. I have a video, made by BMW, that was made in 1992 - almost a year before the introduction of the R1100RS, that shows BMW technicians *testing a wheel to insure it bends* under a given force. FWIW, many of us believe proper tire pressures protect our wheels under all be the most violent impacts to the front end. I have run over 110,000 miles on two RS's, I ride in triple digits most of the time over some of the worst maintained roads in the US (New Mexico)I'm anal about tires and tire pressures, I haven't bent a wheel yet. I did get run off the road into a shoulder pothole this past summer (under brakeing to about 50 when I hit it) it was about 18 inches around and more that a foot deep, that wasted the tire and put two nice dings on the rim. It hit right at the spoke. Otherwise it surely would have bent the rim. Under those conditions, I'd have contacted the insurance company, replaced the wheel, and licked my wounds. - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:16:50 -0700 (PDT) From: haysNoSpam@NoSpamznet.com (Butch Hays) Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Wire Wheels for RS At 1:02 10/7/97, WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com wrote: >Hi all, > The RS wire wheels are 3.5"x18" on the front and the rotors do NOT >interchange. The RS cast wheels are 3.5"x17" on the front. I built an RS wire >wheel for Frank Murtagh's GS and he loves it, but yes, they're pricey. > BTW, the QC has come up on BMW wire wheels since they now incorporate Behr >rims instead of Akronts. They're almost as good as mine:) IMO, the early >tubeless wire wheels weren't torqued very well (read very bad) and you may >remember my concern with them in the past. Several dealers have told me about >GS wheel's spokes becoming loose. Do NOT try to tighten any tubeless wire >wheel! As BMW says, they can't be built by humans. But it's OK, people say >I'm not human... > >Bondo Good to hear from you Tim, I hope business is back to normal! Now what about the rear spoked rim? Is it the same width as the Alloy RS rims? Butch Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:58:08 -0500 (EST) From: IFR10NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: Re: BMW: K75RT Rear Tire ME55A has worked well for me. I have put 15K miles on them lately on K-bikes. I had an opportunity to ride a Honda with a 591 that seemed OK too. The ME55A's only lasted 6-7k. The dunlop had gone 7k with tread left but the bike was much lighter. Good luck. Dan Barks 1992 K75RTA #72899 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 16:43:27 -0500 From: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com Subject: BMW: Bridgestone BT-54 >First. There are only two tires approved for use on BMW's R11's, from >Bridgestone, the BT-50 (currently more than 1,000 in stock in warehouses >in the US) and the BT-54. >Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico I ran the Iron Butt using BT-54's on my K11RS. A 195lb rider, always loaded (maybe "over"-loaded) with gear and over 12K miles. They offered excellent all-around performance with plenty of stick. Although I recently replaced them, the wear-bars had not yet been exposed. IMO, the BT-54 is an excellent street/touring tire. However, I still prefer the steering characteristics of the MeZ's. Gary - NYC Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:23:32 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: Tires, Plugging, Patching, Means & Inflating A topic that comes up whenever someone suffers a tire "loss of air pressure and integrity" is "Can I ride it after I plug or patch it?" and "How far and fast?" This is an attempt at a discussion of the pros and cons. It has been reviewed by Steve Aikens who nearly has an apopleptic/epileptic fit when he hears the term "plugged tire" for an even handed treatment. So, with that.... ======================================= You pay your money and take your choice..... A patched or plugged tire is a *repaired* tire. Things can go wrong with it, that will not occur with a "virgin" tire. Always remember that, while it may be serviceable, it no longer is "perfect". If you do not detect the failure soon enough, the tire may heat to the point that it delaminates and fragments itself. You are walking and getting a new tire at this point. That is, if you are not injured by the bike spitting you off in disgust. :(:( So pay attention to the dreaded signs of "soft tire". There are many here that will tell you to replace the tire. Those tires are all that is between you and safe passage down the road. They have got to hold air. Of course those making the recommendation, may not have the money you have, nor the confidence to do a proper, safe patch. A good, properly installed patch/plug can hold. A poorly installed patch/plug can leak, or delaminate the tire causing you to be pitched down the road testing your leathers or Aerostich. ==8-0 The problem with any repair is that it can leak. Three ways. The plug can allow water to leak or seep into the cords causing the tread to separate from the cords/fabric with not good consequences. :(:( The plug can allow air to leak from the tire interior to the fabric, again causing separation of the tread and not good things. Note, in neither of these has the tire lost air pressure. Both of them can kill you. Lastly the plug can allow air leakage from the inside to the outside resulting in a soft tire. If it leaks to the outside, the question is do you, or can you, sense low tire pressure before it kills you. Two assides: 1) When we ran tubes, tubes were patched and carried you down the road. Or you put a new tube in the tire and rode down the road until the tire tread was dead. The tire was not patched and water could get in if it pleased. Maybe we were lucky, maybe not. Maybe we were ignorant and in bliss. But a hole in a tire is not instantly or consistently fatal, if you can keep the air in it. Many people ran for many miles with new or patched tubes in a tire with a "hole" in it. 2) Find a "worn out" tire, and saw through it. Take a look at how thick it is when you are down to the wear bars. See just how much is keeping the air inside if you see fabric! ===8-0 It is damn little. It is sobering, if not scary. Now, if you decide you want, or need, to patch, what are the critical functions/aspects? The BMW patch kit has some interesting design aspects. First, you ream the hole until it is the "right size". Here is a case where small is not necessarily better. The hole has to be large enough for the plug to fit through. It also should not be so large that the plug can be spit out. Know what the maximum puncture size of 4mm is in inch sizes!! (0.16", or about 5/32", or a little more than 1/8".) So ream that sucker with the factory tool. (Which appears to be about 4mm or so. ;);) )Then put glue on the reaming tool and smear it all through that properly sized hole. Lots of glue is good. You cannot put too much on. This is why you get a new tube of glue periodically, before you find it is dry when you need to use it.... Now you put the plug on the reaming tool, load it with glue, (you do have enough right?) and shove it through the properly sized hole. Follow the directions, stretching the rubber plug, and you have applied LOTS of cement. Then put the reaming tool through the hole stretching the plug, and then removing the reaming tool leaving the plug in the hole. Cut off the excess plug. If you do this right, you will get a result just like in the BMW instructions with the plug being larger on the inside than the outside. (You stretched it thin to get it in, and then it expanded back to the original size when you removed the reaming tool.) For the plug to blow out, it has to shrink down and squeeze through the reamed hole. Internal pressure works against this. Yes, it actually looks this way. I checked it out on a plug I put in to get to the shop for a new tire. For this tire, it was "time". And if you put lots of glue on it, the glue has dried, sealing all the passages from both air on the inside, and water on the outside. This is a good thing to practice on a dead tire at a "Wrenching" get together such as the Slack Pac, Mac-Pac, Shack Pac, Quack Pac, or even the comfort of your own home before you get a new tire. (An electric drill will make the holes quickly without fuss. :):) ) IMO, a better patch is the "mushroom/umbrella" type. To use this type, you have to remove the tire for access to the inside to the tire. This is not a roadside repair, at least for me. ;);) The patch/plug is a rubber circle/oblong with "tail" in the center. The circle/oblong has adhesive on the tail side. The tail can either be inside a metal shield, or it can have metal stem on the end. I have seen patch/plugs with different diameter tails for different size holes. So, remove the tire from the rim, so you can get at the puncture from the inside. Match the tail to the hole size or make the hole big enough that the tail will fit through it, or can be tugged through it. Make sure the area, where the patch will go, is clean, just like you were prepping a tube for a patch. Use some type of tool to put glue in the puncture. Glop the glue on the area where the patch will go. Glop glue on the tail where it will be going through the puncture so that it slides on wet glue. Feed the tail through the puncture, pulling the patch down into contact with the interior of the tire. Press the patch against the tire interior. A C-clamp is good. Give it some time for the glue solvent to evaporate. There should be enough glue on the tail to seal the puncture to the outside. (Keeping water out.) The patch area seals it on the inside. There is no way internal pressure can push that patch through the puncture if it is properly sized, the long path and lots of adhesive and glue keeps the internal air from the cords, and you have filled and glued the hole to keep water from the outside contacting the cords. Refit the tire and you are ready to go and take chances. Steve Aikens found out about the Stop & Go "Plug Gun" It somehow compresses a half inch round rubber slug small enough that it can be stuffed into the hole in the tire. (Don't ask me how they do it. I am just reporting what the advertisement says.) They say it can be used without glue. (Personally, I would like to have some glue in there to fill up any little space bits. But if you did that, it is probably contrary to the manufacturers recommendation, and certainly one would want to wait for the glue to dry before reflating.) The "pistol" that does the compression and insertion looks a bit bulky, but some people might like it. If someone has used one, it would be interesting to find out how it worked. You can use the BMW plugs yourself. If you can take the tire on and off, you can use the patches yourself. Finding someone to mushroom/umbrella patch it is very difficult. They, or their insurer does not want the liability. You or your heirs can be very cranky if the patch leaks. You can use the "Plug Gun" without removing the tire. I won't discuss the "fix a flat in can". If it works, the guy who replaces the tire will not like you. The stuff makes a heck of a mess. And it if does not work, you cannot patch or plug the tire afterwards. Radial tires add a new twist to the evaluation. And it is an ugly one. When you ream the hole, you might be damaging the radial belts. When the belts unwind, the tire can be come strangely shaped and sprout "hairs" due to the belts working their way to the outside world. BTDT. :(:( I have internally patched radial cage tires. I also had them sprout wires from the tread, and become strangely shaped. I could feel the tire squirm as I went down the road. While not good on a cage, it is far worse on a bike. I once rode a tubed bias ply front MC tire VERY SLOWLY for about 2 miles flat, until I got to work. It felt very strange when flat. It continued to feel strange with the new tube in it. I think the riding flat distorted the tire somehow. For radial tires, it seems that plugs or patches truly are rather temporary. And if it feels strange after being plugged or patched, it is time to REALLY SLOW DOWN as something inside is trying to unwind itself, and this is not good. I mentioned this to my cage shop and they said sometimes they just applied an internal patch since that would minimize any belt damage. Good point. If you decide to try this (small holes only) I strongly suggest, glue coating the puncture, with the offending bit. The "Plug Gun" might be good for radial's, and might not. It is fast. It seals by compression when it is released. The radial cords might cut the plug in half allowing it to be spit out. :(:( Radial's, and "patching them" is a brave new world for the adventurous, or those forced into it. ====================================== So where do you get the stuff to patch or plug it? Well, the first means available from your friendly dealer is the BMW Kit. Get new tubes of glue regularly. Larger auto parts stores carry them. So do bicycle shops. Both Competition Accessories and White Horse Press offer "Stop & Go" tire fixing kits. The kits come in several varieties. The "Deluxe Kit" has, plugs, patches and the "umbrella/mushroom" type fix it bits. So, with it, you can do just about anything mentioned here. They also have the "T/L Plug Gun" Steve Aikens first saw this at Deming Cycle Center. Then he found it mail order at Competition Accessories. I found it in the White Horse Press catalog. Larger auto parts store carry a line of patching and plugging materials. If you want to play or practice, stop and get some supplies. :):) ======================================= So you have it patched/plugged/gunned. It is ready to hold air. How do you get the air in there? The BMW kit has a couple of CO2 cylinders and a little threaded arrangement to get the CO2 into the tire. The difficulty is sealing the connection fast enough to convey most of the CO2 into the tire. Frequently a good bit does an excellent job of giving you frosty fingers. :(:( If you only carry this, carry A LOT of cylinders. There is also the "Quick Pump" This is a plastic cylinder you place a regular unthreaded CO2 cartridge in, and as you thread the cylinder onto the "pump" head, the CO2 cartridge is pierced and you have PRESSURE. The head has a control valve and looks much like air hose fitting. Bicycle shops tend to carry these. Also REI. I have not used one, but the concept of it, and the frosty fingers experience using the BMW cartridges, caused me to get one. Don't count on the pump head valve to hold the pressure forever. Don't "store" a cartridge in the cylinder. There is an engine driven arrangement. You thread a free piston assembly into one cylinder's spark plug. It has a hose that you can run to either tire. Fire up the engine and cylinder compression causes the free piston to push air into the tire. (Yes, your twin will run on one cylinder. It will need some throttle, but this helps the pumping process. If you have a catalytic converter, what the cat area for a reddish glow.) You may need adapters for the size spark plug opening you have. Check at home that you have the right size. Don't find out on the road. :(:( NOTE: Gasoline vapor is not pushed into the tire. The free piston pushes air from around the spark plug opening into the tire. The cigarette lighter powered small electric compressors will work fine. Just fit a BMW/John Deere plug on the cord. They are a bit bulky and heavy. The old R bikes had a hand pump. They will work. They will take time. Your arms will be tired. If you are home, the best place to find a flat/puncture, use that handy dandy line voltage compressor. It is the easiest of all. :):) ==================================================== Keeping the stuff together. The BMW plastic envelope eventually dies. Most other plastic bags will too. The neatest thing I have found, are the small Polartec Fleece drawtite bags from Aerostich Rider Wearhouse. (They had to find something to do with all those scraps.) ;);) I like them for grouping stuff in the K tail storage area. I just found someone else who makes Fleece Gear Bags, Mag's Bags in Sonora California. Their E-mail address is magsbagsNoSpam@NoSpamjps.net. They also make "Pack-it Pouches", Tank Bags, other "organisational aids", and COFFEE Makers. (Yes, it is an eclectic mix of products, but I like their style. :):) ) So, now you know more than when you started out. Make your decision. There is no RIGHT or WRONG here. There is JUDGEMENT, RESPONSIBILITY and SKILL/PRACTICE! You pay your money and take your choice..... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | To infuse moral concepts into a political discussion is simply to | | confuse the issue.... Morality is not involved in achieving policy. | | - William Fulbright 1959 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 11:50:46 -0500 From: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com Subject: BMW: Tires, Plugging, Patching, Means & Inflating About the Stop -n- Go plug kit: >After his 5th attempt with this device - he finally got out an old >rubberized string thingie (a bigger version of the BMW tool) and >fixed the hole. He threw the plug-gun into the trash. >It's onna those 'looks like a good idea'.. but may not actually work >like the idea is supposed to. If you're relying on one, I'd do what >Brian suggests and practice in the privacy of your own home (or shack >pack) and make sure it works for you! >================================== >Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ >================================== It worked just fine for me on two separate occasions. Pulled the foreign object out of the tire. Made sure the area was clean. Inserted a plug into the gun. Lube the barrel that slides into the tire's hole. Slide the gun's barrel into the hole. Squeeze trigger all the way. Remove gun from hole. Trim excess plug if necessary. Inflate and go. Simple! On long trips I carry a small electric air pump (about the size of a small motorcycle battery - very light and packs easily). Plug the power cord into the accessory outlet. Snap the airhose onto the tire valve and inflate. You can find them at Caldor's, K-Mart and the like (in the automotive section). Gary - NYC Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:26:23 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: Air pumps At 09:11 PM 11/13/97 -0800, Shibumi wrote: > >At 12:18 PM 11/13/97 -0800, Mark Ketchum wrote: > >>Or buy the BMW frame-mounted pump that came on the old airheads. They >>aren't as high-tech as the mountain-bike intended pumps, but they are as >>tough as nails and hey, they're a BMW part! > >Hey, Mark. I bought one a these for the R65 a year or so ago and couldn't >get it to work. Felt like it was plugged up; couldn't get air into the tire >*or* the air already in the tire filled the pump, like it all worked >assbackwards. So I posted to the list re the problem and, overall, the >consensus was that those pumps were a well-built piece of worthlessness >whose only purpose was to look nice when you sold yer bike. Frankly, this >never made much sense to me but whadda I know? More important, whadda you know? Setting the scene: Lewiston Idaho, KOA *Campground*. New tire in hand. Old tire dead. Nice warm sunny day. I removed the old tire, put on the new one, inflated it USING THE BMW HAND PUMP, bounced it around. Deflated it, PUMPED IT UP AGAIN USING THE BMW HAND PUMP, balanced the tire, and reinstalled the nicely freshly tired wheel. The campground owner looked very confused when I asked him where to dispose of the old tire. :):) I find they work fine. I have used them a few times. Sounds like an operator problem to me. ;);) Practice at home. The pump disasembles easily if you need to check that the passages are clear. Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:20:04 -0800 From: Jerry Harris Subject: BMW: RE: BMW fixing a flat / stop - throw away your BMW kits Dan wrote "I have fixed a flat before with the BMW kit that comes with the R11GS. Simple nail hole, butnot si mple to fix. What an ineffective, time consuming mess! Used up all the rubber inserts, glue and cylinders, just to partially fill a still leaking tire and hobble a mile to an auto supply store. " *************** Well, I have to agree that the BMW kit is totally useless and not worth hauling around in the back of the bike. Saturday I experienced a low rear tire after the club breakfast in Salinas. A fellow member offered to let me go to his house a few miles away to check it out and air it up before the shot back up to Santa Cruz. I found a heavy duty staple in the rear tire in the groove area. Aha! I have a BMW tire repair kit. Dug the kit out, read all the info, pulled out the staple to reveal 2 nice holes leaking all the air. Took the BMW wire handle tool and tried to push it through the tire to clean and lubricate the hole with rubber cement per the instructions. First problem was that I couldn't get a good grip on the tiny wire handle to push with enough force to get through the steel belt, and second, when I did push with enough force, the bike started to push forward off the center stand. Made a good case to carry a strap to tie the center stand to the front wheel to hold it enough to push on the rear. By having someone hold the front of the bike and playing with the angle, I finally got the tool through the first hole. Then I took the little rubber square plugs that BMW gave me, and proceeded to ruin all 3 on them trying to get them to go into the tire. When you push hard enought force them into the hole, the tool cuts through the rubber and you have two pieces and no way to use them. At this point I think of my BMW roadside assistance program, then remember when another club member called them on a Saturday afternoon from highway 1 in Aptos and waited over 3 hours to get the bike towed. All they would do is tow me somewhere and I still need to get the tire plugged. Managed to get use of Dick Dodd's R11 while he rode his Goldwing a few miles to the Kragen auto parts store and found a good old American made Monkey Grip kit for $4 with 2 tools with screw drive type handles and some incredibly sticky black stringy plug pieces and a large tube of cement. Back to the bike for another try. This time, the repairs took all of 2 minutes as they should have and the leaks were stopped. The only usable part of the BMW kit was the razor blade to trim the ends. Fortunately I didn't have to experiment with the BMW inflator. Back to Kragens for 2 new Monkey Grip kits for the bikes for any future problems! Don't ever think your BMW kits will help a flat tire. Replace them before it's on the road hard time to learn time. - -- Jerry Harris Santa Cruz, CA '96 R1100RSL "Raven" Black, of course '98 FLHRCI Unnamed, Red/Black Just for contrast That's what's cool about working with computers. They don't argue, they remember everything and they don't drink all your beer. Paul Leary, guitar player, 1991 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:59:15 -0500 From: Lee Freedman Subject: Re: BMW: Fixing a flat/Stop & Go Plug Gun At 8:31 PM -0700 11/29/97, Dan Arnold wrote: >Stop & Go Tubeless Tire Plug Gun Kit > dan In case you were'nt aware, as I have mentioned before on the list, Stop and Go also makes a pump which fits into the sparkplug hole and inflates the tire with the compression from the engine. Much easier than hand pumping and it's compact and easy to carry. I bought mine several years ago at Chaparral in CA. Phone number and part number furnished on request. I've also seen them at some dealers . Regards Lee Freedman Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:08:18 -0600 From: "Jack L. Casner" Subject: Re: BMW: Fixing a flat/Stop & Go Plug Gun Daniel Quick wrote: > > Dan Arnold > > wrote: > > >Subject: BMW: Fixing a flat/Stop & Go Plug Gun > > > >The Plug Gun Kit is an entirely different proposition and easily plugs a > >tire while it is on the wheel. I practiced the procedure a few times, > then > >used it on an old steel belted car tire. Here's the essential part of the > >operation > > Could you let us know where these are available. > > TIA > > Safe Riding > Daniel Quick > dlquickNoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dlquick > Oxford UK > Flautist Extraordinaire :-) JC Whitney Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:00:01 +0000 From: Keith.BuczakNoSpam@NoSpamhome.corecom.net Subject: Re: BMW: BMW/Tires/Spark plug hole pump > [Lee Friedman:] > |In case you were'nt aware, as I have mentioned before on the list, Stop and > |Go also makes a pump which fits into the sparkplug hole and inflates the > |tire with the compression from the engine. Much easier than hand pumping > > Please tell me this doesn't put gasoline vapors into the tire. I > can just see my poor mechanic blowing his head off when > smoking whilst installing a new tire for me... Works great for bikes with carburators, fuel petcocks and electric starters. Turn petcock to "off", let bike run until carb is drained of fuel, remove spark plug, atttach hose, use starter motor to crank engine until tire is pumped up. I used this type of pump to re-inflate the rear tire on my '94 FLSTC when I had a slow leak while riding to the Arctic Ocean at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, this past June. I was able to ride another 15 miles to our campsite for the night, were I pulled the rear wheel and replaced the tube. Great trip. 900 miles of gravel. 15 Harleys and one BMW. Keith Buczak Eagle River, Alaska '95 R1100GS Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: HerbmwNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Re:Fixing a flat/stop and Go Plug gun There is a place in Reading, PA that has a tool called Dynaplug. It is used on any tubeless tire. My husband was riding with one of our club members when the club member had a flat. Another motorcyclist came by with one of these tools, plugged the hole, went to the gas station, put more air in, he made it from Missouri to Indiana with no trouble. You can also order extra plugs for this tool. You can contact these people at www.dynaplug.com. There e-mail address is infoNoSpam@NoSpamdynaplug.com. The tool is $21.65 and the extra plugs are $5.95. There toll free number is 800-988-2292. Do me a favor, tell them Dean Buhle gave you this information. Hope this helps. Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:55:54 -0700 From: Scott Hayes Subject: BMW: Dunlop 491s for a newer K? Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:54:05 -0700 From: "Rob Lentini" Subject: BMW: Fw: 491 Tires Dunlops are also one of the least expensive tires available and, in the case of the 491s, are US made. For a narrow rim older K I highly recommend them! best, Rob Lentini - ----------------------------------- Is that to say that you would NOT recommend them for a newer (96) K1100LT? (I recognize that the sizes are not identical) Scott Hayes Broomfield, CO Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:50:16 -0500 From: William Safford <73760.3533NoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com> Subject: BMW: Dunlops for R1100RS > Is anyone running Dunlop Sportmax II ZR or the D205 Sportmax > Touring on an R1100xx ? Would like to know how they are on stick > and wear. TIA I had a set (drat, I can't remember which ones--I'll look it up later if you like) of Dunlops on my R1100RS a year and a half ago. I *hated* them. They were shot in under 6,000 miles. The bike felt unsteady in turns. The front tire cupped badly. The rear flattened out rapidly. They didn't stick as well as the Bridgestones I usually run. In comparison, I've been quite happy with Bridgestone BT-50 tires (other than wear), and am still deciding about the BT-57 tires currently on the bike (but they have 6K on them, which already makes them significantly better wearing than the Dunlops). Steve Lythgoe, a tire guy in England, told me a while back that not only are they a bad match for the bike, but that they are specifically *contraindicated* for our bikes in Europe (or at least were at the time). Dunlop tires in general are supposed to be fine tires, but they're a bad match for our bikes, at least based on my admittedly-limited experience and on what a few others who have tried the tires have told me. - --Will Safford Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:31:12 -0700 From: "Rob Lentini" Subject: BMW: Fw: - -----Original Message----- From: Rob Lentini Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 4:26 AM >Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:52:49 -0500 (EST) >From: daliNoSpam@NoSpamnetrox.net (Dali Meeow) >Subject: BMW: Dunlops for R1100RS >Is anyone running Dunlop Sportmax II ZR or the D205 Sportmax Touring >on an >R1100xx ? Would like to know how they are on stick and wear. TIA I'm on my third set of D205s and really like them a lot. Handling and mileage is very satisfactory and they are less expensive than Metzelers. The front, in particular, steers much more lightly and neutral than a Metzeler MEZ1. Of note, when the D205s wear, their handling doesn't fall off much. Reg Pridmore uses them on his Honda CLASS bikes. best, Rob Lentini Tucson, AZ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:16:33 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: TECH Schrader Digital Tire Pressure Gauge Battery Replacement Schrader Digital Tire Pressure Gauge Battery Replacement There are a number of digital tire pressure gauges out there. They are neat units. They appear to be fairly accurate. They display to 1/2 psi. Press a button to energize them and they display the pressure for a bit after the reading stabilizes. However, they are battery powered. And if I have had the batteries die in one, I am sure that others have too. The units are not designed for "user service." However, they cost ~US$16.00 and "a dollar here, a dollar there, pretty soon you are talking real money..." The worst that would happen, if I took it apart, would be that I would have to purchase a new one, and that is what they wanted me to do. The cost for a new battery set is ~US$4-5.00, much less than a new gauge. If it worked, I would be well ahead of the game. :):) So, here is how I took my Schrader gauge apart and replaced the battery. The methods and results may also apply to other digital tire pressure= gauges: Materials needed: Two (2) 3 volt CR-2032 lithium batteries A narrow bladed straight screwdriver Black vinyl electrical tape Cutting instrument There is a narrow split along the length of, and around the case. The threaded head connection is part of the case front, so don't worry about cracking it. Using a thin flat screwdriver blade that fits in the split, put it in the split near the measurement port and twist. Not too much. Just enough to get the case to separate a bit with a "cracking" sound. Move the screwdriver blade along and repeat. Continue all around the case. The back will separate from the front where the ON button and display are. This will scrunch up the plastic where you twisted the screwdriver. So I used a knife to shave the high points, pushed up by the screwdriver blade, off. Don't cut yourself! ;);) With the case split, you can see that the case appears to have been solvent welded together. It was not designed to be separated again. (But it can be...) The batteries live in the back of the case and are connected in series. There is a padded connector behind them. One of the printed circuit board battery connection points has a "+" on it. The positive battery terminal contacts this point. You need two (2) 3 volt Lithium CR-2032 cells to replace the installed units. The Radio Shack part number is 23-162. Take one of the old batteries when you go to the battery store. There are a number of batteries, all about the same size, that look "very similar" Pop/pry/lift the old batteries out. I tried simply putting the new batteries in the old batteries location, and I could not get a good connection to the circuit board. So, I put a bit of aluminum foil (folded to about 4 thickness=92) on top of the padded connector. Now everything worked fine. :):) So, install the batteries, one with the "+" up and one with the unmarked "-" side up. Confirm, that the positive "+" battery connection will touch the "+" marked printed circuit board pad. Since the batteries are not held in place, and can fall out, I held the back, batteries facing up and then put the top/face of the gauge on top of them. When you press the ON button, check that display shows =930.0=94 for= a little bit. This shows all is well. :):) I didn't glue it back together again. I might have to change the batteries again. I taped it back together again. I put one and a half wraps of vinyl electric tape around the gauge just to the left/below the display. Another wrap went around the body next to where the measurement head screws on for a total of two. Pull these tightly, stretching the tape a bit and you will not have funny ripples in it. You now have a pressure gauge ready to go again, for about the one third the cost of a new one. Naturally YMMV. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men | |of zeal ...well-meaning but without understanding." | | =97Justice Louis Brandeis | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 10% #3 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++