From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 28 10:54:15 1997 From: "Karsten Stig Rasmussen" To: Subject: Sv: Re: BMW: Open Letter to Dr. Curve: High speed turns Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:41:22 +0200 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Karsten Stig Rasmussen" ------------------- Mark Crowder wrote: On the other hand, if you weigt the INSIDE peg, you need less overall countersteer and hence waste less of you're traction budget doing so. If feels better too. And, though I can't explain why, it seems to give you a bit more ground clearance. ------------------- It's not so mysterious that one seems to get more clearance. Moving the weight of the body to the side of the bike also moves the centre of gravity of the vehicle ("the middle" of the weight of the bike, rider etc.; "point through which resultant of gravitational forces (on body) always acts"). On a push-bike you feel it much more as it's lighter than the MC. Moving the centre of gravity means that in order to keep going straight the bike leans opposite to you. This characteristic remains whatever going straight or turning. The roadracer hanging on the inside of the bike thus reduces the angle to vertical or enables him to go faster through the curve at the same angle. The friction forces at a certain speed and curve radius are the same no matter the angle of lean but the tires aren't. So don't go below 45 degrees or so... ;-) Sincerely, Karsten Stig Rasmussen ******************************* KSRNoSpam@NoSpamostenfeld.dtu.dk ******************************* Member of the Board of PMC DK Polytechnical MC Club Denmark http:\\www.pmc.dk From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 28 11:01:15 1997 Date: Wed, 28 May 97 07:49:58 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Greg Thomas Subject: BMW: peg weighting Reply-To: Greg Thomas yah know i would read all of these posts, pre CLASS, and could not figure out what was being described. pridmore in 30 seconds set the entire strategy in focus for me. so now that i am an expert, participated in ONE CLASS, here goes. your going to have to stand up, come on i want to hear 2,000+ chairs scraping! "grab" your handle bars, assume a relaxed riding position, you are going to turn left so ....move your head and look over your left hand.... did you feel the weight transfer to your left foot? try the same thing looking over your right hand, weight transfered to the right foot. i am sure there are lots of other much more advanced techniques for moving our motos around but i want to tell you that this simple pridmore "trick" will have you rolling on more power in every corner, my cornering has become much smoother and effortless using this simple strategy. gt From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 28 12:35:03 1997 Date: Wed, 28 May 97 11:53:44 EDT From: Tom Coradeschi To: Thomas Hundt Cc: The Internet BMW Riders , Rob Lentini Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Standing On The Outside Peg? Not Me. (well, sorta!) Organization: Skylands BMW Riders Reply-To: Tom Coradeschi Tom Hundt: >Rob Lentini: >|Reg promotes "body steering" in a big way, and I'm a follower here. I have >|found that placing "some" weight on the outside peg allows me to push the >|tank (using the outside leg) towards the direction of the turn, thus body >|steering. By no means am I "standing" on the outside peg--just weighting >|it for leverage against the tank. It works. > >So you're using your legs to steer. Ok, so why is this better than >countersteering? Does it help to avoid wobble? Not really. It does a couple of things for you. First, it uses them big powerful leg muscles to do much of the work, rather than your (relatively) weak upper body. Reg notes that if you're running endurance races, fatigue is often a deciding factor in where (if) you finish. Street riding isn't racing, but in a long day, fatigue IS an issue and one which needs to be addressed. The other thing it does is to relax your upper body. Reggie's suggestion is to "flap your wings" while you're riding. If the bike keeps going straight, you're relaxed. If it wiggles all over the place - RELAX! Not muscling the bike around with the upper body helps this. Oh, and if you're heavily weighting the inside peg, you're in for a shock when it folds up on you:-} tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> From markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com Thu May 29 01:21:35 1997 To: tcoraNoSpam@NoSpampica.army.mil Cc: thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com, lentiniNoSpam@NoSpamazstarnet.com Subject: Re: Standing On The Outside Peg? Not Me. (well, sorta!) X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-11,13,15,17-29,31-35 From: markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Mark A Crowder) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:19:22 EDT On Wed, 28 May 97 11:53:44 EDT Tom Coradeschi writes: > >Tom Hundt: >>Rob Lentini: [Rob promotes body steering 'ala Reg] >>So you're using your legs to steer. Ok, so why is this better than >>countersteering? Does it help to avoid wobble? > >Not really. It does a couple of things for you. First, it uses them big >powerful leg muscles to do much of the work, rather than your >(relatively) weak upper body. Reg notes that if you're running endurance races, >fatigue is often a deciding factor in where (if) you finish. Street riding >isn't racing, but in a long day, fatigue IS an issue and one which needs to >be addressed. > >The other thing it does is to relax your upper body. Reggie's suggestion >is to "flap your wings" while you're riding. If the bike keeps going >straight, you're relaxed. If it wiggles all over the place - RELAX! >Not muscling the bike around with the upper body helps this. > >Oh, and if you're heavily weighting the inside peg, you're in for a >shock when it folds up on you:-} Tom, a good point. When I'm weighting pegs, I'm trying to make the front end neutral. The right amount is "just enough". Though further inside weighting seems to give better clearance, at the limit of traction it will also push the front -- Just as more outside weighting will push the rear .... Mark Crowder Garland, TX markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com We're the ones you're mother warned you about From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu May 29 01:40:53 1997 To: gregtNoSpam@NoSpamnwresd.k12.or.us Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: peg weighting X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6,8-10,12,14,16-19,21,23,25-96 From: markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Mark A Crowder) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:19:22 EDT Reply-To: markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Mark A Crowder) On Wed, 28 May 97 07:49:58 -0700 Greg Thomas writes: > >"grab" your handle bars, assume a relaxed riding position, you are going to >turn left so ....move your head and look over your left hand.... did you >feel the weight transfer to your left foot? try the same thing looking over >your right hand, weight transfered to the right foot. > >i am sure there are lots of other much more advanced techniques for moving >our motos around but i want to tell you that this simple pridmore "trick" >will have you rolling on more power in every corner, my cornering has become >much smoother and effortless using this simple strategy. Greg, What with the "advanced" stuff flying around, it's certainly important to remember that "look through the turn" is still the most basic, most important fundamental cornering skill. Did you get to ride pillion with Reg? That was a hoot! I keep this little tidbit around -- now seems as good a time as any ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following is taken from the September 1994 issue of MOTORCYCLIST: TOO HOT! by Reg Pridmore Sooner or later, it hits even the best rider -- the sudden realization that your approach speed is much too fast for the corner rapidly filling your faceshield. It doesn't matter if you're a commuter cruising home from work or a racer who just suffered a lapse of attention at speed; riding out of this mess gracefully demands attention, skill and mental preparedness. Let's take the problem a stage at a time. DECIDE TO MAKE IT: Your first emotion should be a firm determination to "ride through the corner". You have to stay mentally strong and supress any doubts, which can quickly explode into panic, and can overwhelm your ability to take charge of the situation. Too often a rider panics and locks the rear brake, losing his ability to control the situation. He then slides off a corner that he could have made if he simply had been resolved to do so. Some riders simply freeze, and never make any control inputs at all. It's more comon for a rider to crash when he panics entering a corner that he could have completed than it is for a rider to fall trying to corner too hard. Learn to relax and maintain your body position and motorcycle control in these high-pressure circumstances. LEAD WITH YOUR EYES: You go where you look, so LOOK UP THE ROAD AND THROUGH THE CORNER where you want to go. Don't let you eyes begin searching for a place to crash. Part of overcoming panic is wrenching your eyes away from the ditch or railing or even the open field looming ahead and putting them where you want to turn. It's also the first step in actually turning that way. BRAKE DEEP, LEAN HARD: If there's ever a moment when your braking practice pays off, it's now. As long as you have some significant pavement ahead, there is room to brake. The slower you go, the tighter an arc you can ride through the corner. Of course, the closer you come to the edge of the lane, the tighter an arc you NEED to stay there. Given sufficient room and hard enough braking, at some point your speed drops below the point at wich you can safely lean it over and drive through the corner. That speed is probably higher than you realize, however, unless you have spent some time on a racetrack exploring the outer edges of your bike's performance abilities. The only way you will learn how much your bike has left and how to use it fully is to practice. LEARN FROM THIS EXPERIENCE: A close call should reinforce your confidence if you handle it successfully, reminding you that you have a reserve to tap. It should also remind you of your limitations. In other words, either know your road, or slow down. About the Author: British-born Reg Pridmore is a former BMW factory rider and U.S. Superbike Champion. He founded the CLASS safety school, which he now teaches with his roadracing son Jason. For information on CLASS, which introduces high-performance techniques to riders at racetracks around the country, call (800) 235-7228 or fax (805) 933-9987. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Crowder Garland, TX markcrowderNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com We're the ones you're mother warned you about From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu May 29 14:52:08 1997 From: Tom Nash To: "'bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com'" , "'roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com'" Subject: BMW: Re: Standing On The Outside Peg? Not Me. (well, sorta!) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:44:58 -0700 Reply-To: Tom Nash Hi Prezes, I have been taking a lot of out-of-town business trips for the last six = or eight weeks, and haven't had time to keep up with the list. I = diligently saved all the digests to read when I had time, but then gave = up and deleted them all when I had 100 or so unread digests sitting in = the IN box. My loss. :) Rooz: >The key is the leaning (because of what it does to dem big gyros in da bike) and not necessarily da pegs.< Sitting still on the seat and using your knees, or standing on one peg = or the other, are good up to a certain point, However, once you decide = to get a bit more aggressive in the turns, moving your weight around to = change the position of the bike/rider center of gravity is critical. = There's a reason the stock seat on a K1100RS is curved on the sides. It = makes it easier for one's posterior to slide over one way or the other. = Using body weight shifting in conjunction with pressure on pegs and = counter-steer, a K1100RS will stay pretty close the Japanese road = rockets and Ducs despite crummy hard tires and the K's brick-like = tendencies. In fact, one of the fastest guys I know rides a = 1980-something R100RT, and he puts the kids on the Duc's to shame in the = corners. If you want to see the technique in action, watch any = motorcycle road race, and pay attention to what the riders are doing in = the hard turns. (Those replaceable knee pads on their leathers are = there for a reason.) Most of the time, most of us don't ride near the limits, and just about = any technique will work. When you get near the limits, however, = changing the CG changes the turn limits, which are dictated primarily by = tire capabilities. If you can change the center of gravity, and = therefore reduce the the required lean angle so that the tire can stay = further away from its edge, you can improve your cornering and provide = yourself with a margin of safety. There is a practical limit to this as = well, because you don't want to unload the front end and allow it to = slide out from under you. Sombody else mentioned keeping a relaxed grip = on the bars in these kinds of turns. That's a very critical point as = well, because too firm a grip will not allow you to feel when the front = end is near its limits, and ready to slide. Again, all of these considerations are out near the limits. For normal = riding and touring, you don't need it, but it's nice to have in your bag = of tricks if you ever get into an emergency situation. Tom Nash '94 K1100RS San Francisco From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu May 29 20:50:38 1997 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:27:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Ketchum , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Standing On The Outside Peg? Not Me. (well, sorta!) Reply-To: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) At 11:43 PM 5/29/97, Mark Ketchum wrote: >So you're claiming that the more-leaning gyroscope increases your forward >velocity? And that is what enables you to take the turn faster? Or are you >claiming it just enables taking the turn on a smaller radius, which has a >smaller arc length, that takes you less time to complete? I can't quite say >that I buy either argument (yet). But hey, I'm just a . . . I don't really know for sure. All I know is that when I started to consciously lean the bike at its maximum (within the constrainst of clearance) I ended up being able to take the turns much faster. This is a very complex topic and we need a good physicist who is also a hell of a good rider to explain the role of gyroscopic effect in making turns. Regards, Roozbeh _______________________________________________________________________ Roozbeh Chubak AMA #552002 Village Idiot Idiologue BMWOA #38643 Flatulist Extraordinaire Berkeley, CA BMWRA #21280 BOOF #1 '96 R1100GS, '90 R100RT DoD #6666 SOD #20 ======================================================================= From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed May 28 19:03:10 1997 From: Clarence Dold Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Standing On The Outside Peg? Not Me. (well, sorta!) To: thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Clarence Dold > |Reg promotes "body steering" in a big way, and I'm a follower here. I have > |found that placing "some" weight on the outside peg allows me to push the > |tank (using the outside leg) towards the direction of the turn, thus body > |steering. By no means am I "standing" on the outside peg--just weighting > |it for leverage against the tank. It works. > So you're using your legs to steer. Ok, so why is this better than > countersteering? Does it help to avoid wobble? Countersteering causes faster front tire wear. I notice that Keith Code (Twist of the Wrist) favors outside peg weighting, and a stiffened X-Frame upper body, with lots of countersteering. Reg prefers a soft body (and takes swipes at stiffened elbows on the track), with body steering and inside peg weighting. For my personal use, I've found that butt steering works very well with the K75, and I don't have a whole lot of butt to work with. I've never had anything resembling frame-flex wobble on the K75. The Hondas, especially the 750, would flex the frame enough just from acceleration to induce a high speed wobble, and would often flex and feel uncomfortable in bumpy turns. Some of the difference I attribute to the mono-shock rear, and almost monoshock fron of the K75, but the frame, and stressed engine, just don't wobble for me. -- --- Clarence A Dold - doldNoSpam@NoSpamnetwork.rahul.net - Pope Valley & Napa CA. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 3 06:05:46 1997 From: "Pat Roddy" To: "Jeffrey Harth" , Subject: BMW: Re: Re: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:24:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Pat Roddy" Jeff writes: > Exactly my point, Mark. I watch the pro's race and see what they do. I > watch people ahead of me and see what they do and each seems to have their > own method. However, I may not know why they do it. And, if there are > occassions not to do it. I don't particularly feel like becoming a test > pilot, again. The ground barrier is hard to break. > > Also, the ERC specificaly teaches not to slide your butt off the seat, hang > by the opposite grip, or stick your knees out, yet I see guys racing for > big bucks and do these things. Hmm. That's where the confusion comes > from. Maybe I should take a race school and be done with it. > > Thanks for your contribution. > > Jeff Harth Jeff: If you have a chance, get to one of Reg Pridmore's CLASS events at a race track near you. Although Reg does 'hang off' when racing, he did NOT recommend that to us during the CLASS I attended at Road Atlanta 3 years ago. He told the guys who wanted to hang off to go ahead and do it, but to the rest of us he told us that it was not important for us to worry about. My most favorite part of the CLASS experience was riding on the back with Reg (we took 3 'hot' laps). We were aboard a K11RS. It was amazing. There were several very good riders there that day. Some were aboard CBR 900s, some GSXRs and a few Duc 916s. Although these guys were wailing, it was no problem for Reg to take them anywhere he wished, 2 up with a 200 pound passenger on pillion! To give you an idea of how far we were leaning over in the curves of Road Atlanta, both my boots scraped (remember, this was on the back!). Throttle management is the key point that CLASS pounds into your head. They did not go off on tangents of CG, although they did stress body steering (peg weighting) and we had one exercise performed off the track where they wanted us to work on body steering. Although I tried hard, getting the LT to 'steer' with just shifting weight was difficult. It works on my smaller bikes, but on the 'Luxo Tub' it was not as evident. However, I digress. With proper throttle management, and just keeping your butt centered on the seat, speed will come with smoothness. At Road Atlanta, there is turn 11, the biggest mindf***er on the track. You come down a long straightaway (with rolling hills) of nearly a mile long, drop into 'Gravity Cavity' (where your stomach then meets your Adam's apple), and you are heading for 11. Above you is a bridge. You have to make the bridge turn well before you visualize it because as you exit under the bridge, you plunge straight downhill, along pit lane, and into turn 12, a tight right hand sweeper. If you wait until you see the turn, you are literally screwed. A HUGE concrete wall (the bridge) will gladly meet you at speed if you haven't executed your right hand turn...blindly!). My initial speeds at the beginning of CLASS coming into turn 11 were probably 65-70 or so. After several classroom sessions, on track guidance with the instructors, a ride with Reg, my afternoon speeds into 11 were well over 100 mph. I was even taking turn 12 near WFO. BTW-None of the instructors were leaning off, extending knees, etc. Not Reg, nor his hotshoe son Jason. If you want to learn to lean off, then CLASS isn't really the place to do it (unless they have changed in the interim). Ed Bargy race schools do teach that (at least that is what I have been told); but those classes are almost all full tilt sporto-bikers (that have a very high number of crashes too) and much less emphasis on classroom time or track 'etiquette'. We did have some crashes too, but all bikes were able to be ridden off the track. Plus, putting yourself in the "B" team, where no passing is allowed in the corners, makes it a lot more enjoyable for the first time CLASS student. (The "A" team, those with racing experience or who have taken the class before are allowed to pass in corners). So go do this, and don't worry about hanging off. That is something you shouldn't really be doing on public roads anyway. My 0.02 worth :-) pr PS--When riding on public roads, at least in Georgia, TN, and NC, where some of the best roads on this planet exist, hanging off, touching a knee, etc, will get you a MAJOR ticket--in TN you will be awarded a willful reckless driving ticket, good for 6 points off your license, a four figure fine, (and usually a trip to the nearest jail-speed notwithstanding). Drag a knee (or just looking like you are) and they will nail you.....hard! Leave the hanging off stuff to the pros on the track. When you learn throttle mgmt., it will surprise you how much faster, and smoother, you will become without all the 'johnny racer' contortions. :-) There are several riders in our club who routinely, and at will, smoke the johhny racer types in the North GA mts. on bikes much 'better" than their standard Beemers. None of these guys lean off or extend their knees-they know the roads and they know throttle management. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat May 31 20:00:00 1997 Return-Path: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by slack.net (8.8.4/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08015 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:59:54 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA21813; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA21809; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08416; Sat, 31 May 1997 19:48:17 -0400 Received: from [153.35.228.161] (1Cust72.Max9.Phoenix.AZ.MS.UU.NET [153.35.229.200]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13273 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:38:22 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Mark Weiss Subject: BMW: Physics, Free Bodies, CGs & Motorcycles Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: Mark Weiss Errors-To: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ The thing that seems to be forgotten in most of the arguments that I have read is that moving motorcycles are always being acted on by outside forces. The balance point is the product not only of the location of all of the masses that make up the cyle and rider, but also of the constanly changing outside forces. To corner quickly, and preserve maximum ground clearance, *I* do the following: Seated foreward on the saddle, I support my weight with my highside thigh, knee, and calf. I press on the outside footpeg only so much as is necessary to keep my weight forward and to allow me to have as light a hold as possible on the bars. I have a small amount of weight on the low foot, but my heel is pressed tightly against the bike to help hold me in place and to apply some rolling force to complement that of my highside leg. My lowside knee is in against the bike (for my R100rs). In really hard turns my lowside knee is far forward so that I am somewhat pivoted about the fuel tank, on a bike without those big aluminum ground feelers that a boxer has, I may let my knee drop away from the tank to feel for the pavement, with the RS fairing I cannot reach my knee below the valve cover. The elbow of my highside arm is touching my leg just above my knee (I have "S" bars on my RS) As I corner harder I let my inside shoulder drop a bit and I lean forward. At my maximum my faceshield almost touches the trailing edge of my windshield. At any point in the turn I have so little weight on the handlebars that I could lift my hands without changing my posture on the bike. This way, if the front wheel bobbles over some irregularity of the ground, I do not add to the wiggle. ALL of the time, I am accelerating. If I am anticipating a quick fast turn, I will position myself while I am braking. Keeping the throttle open the entire time that I am turning is more important than all of the above steps. As I mentioned at the beginning, this is what *I* do. It is the result of street and track experiences, and ESPECIALLY a result of what I have been taught by others. YMMV. Mark S. Weiss mark_weissNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net MSF Certified Instructor Chandler (SE of Phoenix) Arizona R100RS, R90/?!, R75/5, CB400F Ride Well, and Ride Safe. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 16 09:53:30 1997 From: steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:38:10 -0600 Organization: PC Solutions, Inc. To: Roozbeh Chubak Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Being Alert Pays Off Reply-To: steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com Roozbeh Chubak wrote: > > I had a near bad one today. >.......... > I had slowed down to a stop, and as I always do, I checked my mirrors to > make sure I was safe. But no! I see this Audi directly behind me braking > furiously, his front end pushed way down, and he is gaining on me at a rte > that I know he is not going to stop before hitting me! So I got the hell > out of the way: I was already in first gear so I just opened the throttle, >.......... > > The Audi managed to finally come to a stop, way past the pedestrian >.......... > The lesson: Look 3600 about you and watch out for inattentive assholes like > this Audi driver. Glad you made it through that one. Thanks for the reminder. -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 20 12:32:27 1997 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:13:22 -0700 From: LMA To: WXPNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Cc: mulvijNoSpam@NoSpampacbell.net, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com, roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com, BMW-GSNoSpam@NoSpammicapeak.com, asmialekNoSpam@NoSpamseva.net Subject: Re: BMW: Back pain, joint aches, HELP! Reply-To: LMA > > In a message dated 97-06-20 00:36:18 EDT, mulvijNoSpam@NoSpampacbell.net (John Mulvihill) > writes: > > << If you have had these problems and beat them, or even found a way to deal > with them, I'd like to hear from you before I lose all hope and take up > golf. (Just kidding! I could never do anything that ridiculous.) >> > > Hi John, > I can relate to your problem in a big way! My chiro cruncher says that I have the spine of a 80 year old man holding my 46 year old body up. I used to ride cruisers(HD's) until the pain overcame the fun. I tried an RS, but found that the weight on the wrists wasn't much of an improvement. Riding at warp nine took the weight off my wrists,but that isn't how I enjoy myself. Now I have an R100RT and can ride all day when solo and all day with breaks when riding two up. What works for me is using the passenger pegs whenever it is safe to do so. This tips my pelvis forward and puts the natural curve back in my spine. This reduces the piledriver effect of being straight upright. I also have to stay away from custom seats that tend to hold me in one position all the time. I need to be able to slide around and change my position when my back starts to complain. Being conscious of what "good" posture consists of and correcting yourself when your not practicing it will make for a better day's end. No two back problems are exactly the same. Hope this helps yours. Mark Ayotte Southington, CT. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 20 12:44:36 1997 From: "John Mulvihill" To: "Geoff Adams" Cc: "BMW Internet Riders" Subject: Re: BMW: Back pain, joint aches, HELP! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:34:01 -0700 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "John Mulvihill" Geoff: > This is why RS's are called "Sport Tourers". You avoid the spine > compression of the sit-up-and-beg posture, yet don't get the > lay-down-on-the-tank punisment of the crotch rocket. > > However, as with sport bikes, you are putting some weight on your hands > and since your torso is leaning a bit forward, you use muscles at the base > of your neck raising your head and helmet. A reasonable trade-off, IMHO. > But taking time to really dial in the handlebar angle and lever positions > to suit you can make or break the deal. As always, YMMV. What can I say? Your logic is pristine. Will test ride an R11RS to see if its riding position is the answer. Should be pretty easy to swap my GS for one. Ironic thing is, all my GS11 requires for Iron-Butt-level marathon touring is a fuel cell. Were it not for my wonky back, I'd have the ultimate comfort machine. (Most other people have no problems with a sit-up touring position, which is why the Iron Butt crowd favors it.) - John Mulvihill From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jul 6 04:34:34 1997 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 00:44:47 -0700 From: Sam Lepore To: internet bmw riders Subject: BMW: A face full of water Reply-To: Sam Lepore Warren Harhay wrote during his review of his K1200: > bit. Plop goes the windscreen splashing a sheet of water accross your > faceshield temporarily blurring your vision at the most inopportune This reminds me of a surprising item I learned during my recent summer trip on my K75RT. I do not often ride in rain and seldom in heavy rain. When I was in Cincinnati, I rode in a deluge for about 30 miles. I was quite surprised to find the misty, difused spray generated by the K windshield in its high position. In addition to inducing fogging on my faceshield, the spray itself was like looking through fog - visibility was very low. More suprising, when I put the screen all the way down - the full blast of air kept my face shield clear rather than giving a face full of water. So my experience is counter to the concern Warren expresses. Do other K riders use shields up or shields down during heavy rain? _________________________ Sam Lepore, San Francisco From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jul 11 14:51:10 1997 From: "Jeffrey Harth" To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Cc: dbrickNoSpam@NoSpamarmory.com Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:09:02 -0400 Subject: BMW: RE: Accident Report (no injury) Reply-To: "Jeffrey Harth" David writes: To: "jeffrey harth" Cc: "bmwmc" Subject: BMW: Re: RE: Accident Report (no injury) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:30:09 -0700 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "ynotfix" Jeff; Here in CA the CHP are trained to stop off center just for the reason you state. The officer who was hosting traffic school passed it on to us (his class). It has possibly save me twice. Both times a car skidded to a stop alongside me, directly over the spot that I would have been in. He also gave us this tip: When leaving a signal that has turned green, stay rearward of the lead vehicles until they have cleared the intersection in order to use them as a "block" in the case of a fool driver that may have run the red. Most of us tend to pull away from the head of the group at a lite; thus exposing us to getting "T-Boned" ---------- > From: Jeffrey Harth > To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com > Cc: dbrickNoSpam@NoSpamarmory.com > Subject: BMW: RE: Accident Report (no injury) > Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 11:09 AM > > > > > > > David writes: > (crunch descrip snip) > > David, > > First I'm glad you are OK. This is an accident you can live with, > literaly. > > Second, I had a driver almost rear-end me 8 months ago. I read Roozbeh's > accident account with goosebumps. Same scenario, only my driver left 20 > foot skid marks and I had a car in front of me. I couldn't even get the > bike out of neutral. I just yelled "NO, NO, NO!". I didn't even think to > jump off of the bike and run. He stopped two feet short of my back tire. > > Since then, I have added several behaviors to my "save my life tool kit." > When I stop at a traffic light, or when I idle in stop and go, I never ride > the center of the lane. I always ride to the side and stop close to the > lane divider line with nothing in front of me and out of the path of travel > of the car behind me. I was concerned at first that cars would take > advantage of the "open" space that I leave in my lane and crowd me over, > but that hasn't happened. Also, I keep the bike in gear and watch my > mirrors. I know that this breaks some of the "command your lane" rules for > safe biking, but so be it. I was asked by a policeman once what I was > doing. I explained my motives and he said "no problem." > > Jeff Harth > 85 K100RS - Red (Klaus) > Philadelphia, PA > 85 K100RS - Blue (Hans) > Munich, Germany > From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 02:55:47 1997 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:50:10 -0800 To: Nancy Evelyn Gold From: kariNoSpam@NoSpamcalbmwtriumph.com (Kari Prager) Subject: Re: BMW: K1100 Torque and Cornering Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: kariNoSpam@NoSpamcalbmwtriumph.com (Kari Prager) >Hi All, > >The big/tall woman with the LT is back. :-) > >I'm riding my K1100LT again after a year of pretty lite riding. I've >been working on my cornering lately and I've got a question. > >Do most K owners do heavy amounts of shifting when riding on >winding roads like the rice rockets do? Personally, I don't shift much, staying mainly in two gears (2/3 or 3/4). I use lots of RPM (sometimes up to the rev limiter) and shift as little as possible, but never let the revs fall below 4500 if I am feeling zippy. Higher rpms mean lots of engine braking so I rarely need to use the brakes and it feels much easier (to me) to ride smoothly than at lower rpms. > >I'm finding that the torque range of my bike has me staying >in one gear more often then I would expect. Having Carpel Tunnel >Syndrome doesn't help either. :-( > >What's the wisdom? > >Thanks, > >--- Nancy > >'93 K1100LT (Chloe) DoD# 1184 There is another kind of shifting that helps to go quicker on an LT without dragging the undercarriage. Shift your weight around on the bike as you corner, and especially if there are dips or bumps in the corner. I climb all over the bike. You weigh more than me, so you probably don;t need to shift as far, but definitely shift your body to the inside of the bike a little as you enter a corner and keep your weight on the balls of your feet as much as on the seat, especially over bumps. It feels weird at first but then you will see how well it works. Enter slowly, exit quickly, is also a good rule with an LT, since it is so hard to change your mind on one once you are in the corner and committed... :^). K All the best, Kari [Kari Prager, California BMW Triumph, 2490 Old Middlefield Way, Mountain View, CA 94043 415.966.1183/966 8340 FAX, E-mail to , use for orders or shop business. Our website is at www.calbmwtriumph.com] *** Summer Party & Cruiser Intro - July 19th. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 07:41:24 1997 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:29:55 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Dana Priesing Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Nancy and Steve K1100 Torque Reply-To: Dana Priesing Bob sez to Nancy: > >Important thing Nancy is just don't play with the gas, unless you smoothly add >more. Just keep it smooth and constant. If you see you've got a little to much >steam, just push Chloe down a little more. 3rd and 4th are mostly the only >gears I need in the fast twisties. ... and try this: right hand, first and second fingers resting on but not actuating the brake lever, third and fourth fingers wrapped around the throttle. When & if you downshift approaching the curve, try simultaneously giving a bit of a twist with fingers 3 & 4 to increase the revs slightly. This takes alot of practice (my common mistake is to rev too early and too much), but once it's a habit, the lower gear clicks in easy and the suspension doesn't get upset so much by the downshift. Smooooooooth sailing. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS (replacing a K100LT that I climbed all over) BANG #1 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 17 09:22:42 1997 From: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 09:08:57 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Nancy and Steve K1100 Torque To: DPriesingNoSpam@NoSpamwaonline.com, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com >the throttle. When & if you downshift approaching the curve, try >simultaneously giving a bit of a twist with fingers 3 & 4 to increase the In addition to the above, you might try not pulling the clutch lever all the way to the handgrip. You should find that the clutch will disengage with only about 1/4 of clutch lever travel. Find that point and shift there. You'll have quicker and smoother shifts. Gary - NYC From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 22 22:19:03 1997 From: "Pat Roddy" To: "BMW List" , Subject: BMW: Re: Dogs and Ditches Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:38:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Pat Roddy" One of my mentors when 're-emerging into riding told me "If the animal is BELOW your front axle, don't take the ditch, take the animal if there is no other choice. If the animal is HIGHER than your front axle, DON'T HIT IT! pr pr Buford, GA. USA 93K1100LT & 95 R100GS N 34 04.757' W 83 58.863' Elev-1400+ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 23 01:50:31 1997 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:37:56 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Charles Sturtevant Subject: Re: BMW: Accident Report (I'm out for the season) Reply-To: Charles Sturtevant Jeffrey, Bummer! I don't know how old you are, but I am 56 and I find I only allow myself to go to 75% of the limit of my skills (my perception). Or to borrow a saying from the flying business: "I use my superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of my superior skills." But then, I'm no fun. At 05:54 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >This is a report that I wish I didn't have to send. > The painful part was snipped. ************************************** Charles Sturtevant 82R100CS BMW MOA IBMWR ALEA CFI Rotorcraft Springfield, Virginia ************************************** From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jul 25 17:08:54 1997 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 15:45:52 CDT From: keithNoSpam@NoSpambalrog.dseg.ti.com (Keith Schauer) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com, mattmcgNoSpam@NoSpamjamusa.com Subject: Re: BMW: Armadillos Reply-To: keithNoSpam@NoSpambalrog.dseg.ti.com (Keith Schauer) > From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 24 14:16:19 1997 > From: Matt McGinn > Subject: BMW: Armadillos > > > I remember a thread a while back about how to avoid or not avoid small > animals (squirrels, raccoons, small dogs...) that may run out into the > road. My MSF instructor told us not to try evasive maneuvers, the theory > being that they will likely run out of the way at the last second. If not, > you could simply hit them square on and roll over them. In swerving to > avoid them you increase your chances of hitting them while off balance. > Have not had to test this theory yet. > > On a recent trip through Arkansas I witnessed a disturbing number dead > armadillos along the road. Since then this has been bugging me...do the > same rules apply when encountering these hard shell creatures? I cannot > imagine that they would squish as effectively as say a raccoon might. Has > anyone hit one of these things? How about large turtles? Not that > armadillos are a big problem where I ride most of the time. But I would > still like to know. i sliced a dillo one time at about 60 mph. no problemo. they slice soft as a butterfly. but they do tend to stain the side cases. keith schauer 87 K100LT, 80 CB900C plain o, texas El Fiero, RIP - My Arab Friend, Flash - Pinto dod ama ibmwr bmwmoa my company disavows any knowledge of my actions 2.5 %er From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat Jul 26 06:43:35 1997 From: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) To: "Bob Shilling" Cc: "BMWMC" Subject: BMW: Doctah's orders, was Anton's trip to NC Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:02:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) Bob & other listers: You have inquired about The Doctah's exercises which I use to prevent/relieve shoulder pain on long rides... Said Doctah is Terence Evans, MD, aka T-Mia, or TERRY-Miami. No rocket science about the moves. Based on what Terry told me in Georgia, each half hour I do the following (if I remember): 1) Shoulder rolls: a series of them, both directions. Big rolls; make sure you tighten all of the muscles involved. 2) Chicken wings - yup, flap 'em like a bird, but slowly. All the way, both ways. This basically "recalibrates" your shoulders into a truly relaxed position; you can tense up some without really feeling it until your muscles start to spasm. 3) Head rolls. Lean that pumpkin side-to-side, several times. Again, try to fully extend the muscles. Other points he mentions: 4) Use a turtleneck or something else to seal off wind coming in around the neck. Feeling cold will really tense you up. 5) In extreme cases, if you can't shake the pain, ice can help. It'll numb out the pain as well as the muscle spasm. Put the ice in a zip-lock bag inside the jacket or whatever. Icing down after you stop can help you for the next day. Personally, I don't want to push so hard that I need "ice maintenance" but maybe after I've achieved BOOFdom... The important thing is that you do the exercises BEFORE you feel stiff. I've saved myself several times after pain has set in, but it all works better as prevention, rather than cure. Anton Largiader, Chester Springs, PA Astral Blue '94 K75 BMWBMW, IBMWR, BMWMOA, NMA, K-Whiner #45, and probably more... "I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead " - Jimmy Buffett lyric, "I'm Growing Older But Not Up", from Coconut Telegraph. ---------- > From: Bob Shilling > To: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net > Cc: BMWMC > Subject: Re: BMW: Anton's trip to NC, part 4 of 4 > Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 11:45 AM > > Nice report, nice ride. At the risk of restarting some thread I may have > skipped over, what are "the Doctah's shoulder exercises?" Sounds like > something I could use. > TIA > Bob > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . ............................... > Bob Shilling, SE Berkeley, CA shillingNoSpam@NoSpamemf.net > KK6QQ MSA S-10 > '91 R100 "Tornado/Sleipnir" ABC#2063 DoD# 1195 > "Give me my cycle, and a star filled sky above..." > 'The Wild One' Johnny Horton(1925-1960) > "This alligator walks into a bar and ..." Horizon Kent From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jul 27 09:18:07 1997 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Dana Priesing Subject: BMW: Watch Those 18 Wheelers (Was Top O the Rockies report, long) Reply-To: Dana Priesing Geoff Adams wrote: > >Although I was getting tired (and dirty), the high speed night run across >northeastern NM was great. Not a peep from the radar detector since >Dallas, light traffic, easing winds, dropping temperature, an eighteen >wheeler 1/4 mile ahead running 90. Watch out for those big boys Geoff. I was behind one (closer than 1/4 mile, though) last Spring and one of its back tires torqued a small rock at me like a missile. Luckily I was in my Civic, as the rock surely had enough action in it to shatter a face shield, and came at me at just the wrong height, too fast to avoid. THUNK! It took a small bite out of the Civic's windshield and left me shaken and wondering.... Now when I'm on Gunhead, I don't get anywhere those 18 wheelers. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS (Gunhead) BANG #1 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jul 27 17:12:36 1997 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:54:02 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Dennis & Karen Withner Subject: BMW: Watch Those 18 Wheelers Reply-To: Dennis & Karen Withner > Watch out for those big boys Geoff. I was behind one (closer than >1/4 mile, though) last Spring and one of its back tires torqued a small rock >at me like a missile. Luckily I was in my Civic, as the rock surely had >enough action in it to shatter a face shield, and came at me at just the >wrong height, too fast to avoid. THUNK! It took a small bite out of the >Civic's windshield and left me shaken and wondering.... > > Now when I'm on Gunhead, I don't get anywhere those 18 wheelers. > >Dana Priesing Another 18 wheeler generated hazard I encountered on my trip from WA to the national this year I will call the *Semi-Slap* . Many of the roads I traveled across our country were two-lane/high-speed. In head on passes with high speed semis, different wind blasts were experienced. The trucks with all the fancy aerodynamic spoilers or sleepers passed with hardly any effect other than some burbling turbulance in their wake. More stunning in effect were the un-faired trucks, with the live-stock trucks seeming to be the worst. On one occasion, running against what was probalby a 20-30 mph head wind, and riding to left of center lane, one of the cattle haulers literally blasted by. I do believe that the explosive lateral impact of the trucks wind wall skidded my front wheel sideways, almost jerking the bars from my too relaxed grip. It felt as if the bike and my head, had been slapped by a giant hand. Let me tell U about having your attention gotten! If, when that truck went by, I had been scratcing my ear or something, with one hand off the bar, I might well have lost it. =80 A leson learned! After that rude awakening I paid much more attention to the trucks approaching, and moved to the far side of the lane and hung on when a likely brute approached. The *slap* is actually kind of an interesting physical experience, and a invigorating change of pace on those long straight runs, as long as one is prepared for the impact. I found myself seeking them out occasionally. a Blast from the Fast Dennis (DMW) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Dennis Maxwell, & Karen Lee, Withner BMWRA/AIRHEADS/MOA/ULC Ham-NX7D SSI-IT #123 Ham-KA7EJO ANDI,NAUI,YMCA,PADI Diving Travel Agent Washington Divers Inc. 903 N State St, Bellingham WA 98225 ph 360-676-8029 fax 360-647-5028 ~Diving Educators and Outfitters since 1973~ 77' R100/7 "Educator" Carpe Beemum - (sieze the Beemer) see U aroundel *********************** From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jul 27 21:12:15 1997 From: WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:01:28 -0400 (EDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Cc: DPriesingNoSpam@NoSpamwaonline.com Subject: BMW: Re: Watch Those 18 Wheelers Reply-To: WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Dana, Geoff et al: >>Geoff Adams wrote: >> Dallas, light traffic, easing winds, dropping temperature, an eighteen >>wheeler 1/4 mile ahead running 90. And Dana sez: > Watch out for those big boys Geoff. I was behind one (closer than >1/4 mile, though) last Spring and one of its back tires torqued a small rock >at me like a missile. I had one chuck an asteroid at me from between the tires as it got to speed from a gravel quarry. It clipped the windshield of the FLH and scared the %^&* out of me. That was a few years ago. I now make a habit to NEVER ride close to ANYTHING I can't see around. If you can't see ahead you are bound to strike road trash, sand, greasespots, Nauga's (old tire chunks) or who knows! That's why you'll always see me riding like I'm about to pass but it's really to see the road ahead and give me time for evasive action. _______________________________________________ Tim(Bondo)Bond 606-873-6686 3455 Oregon Rd Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles, KY 40383 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com WireWheelsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com _______________________________________________ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jul 28 10:47:49 1997 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:31:14 -0700 (PDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) Subject: BMW: Lending Bikes Reply-To: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) Yesterday I went on a long exciting ride with a group of experienced riders. They were all riding Triumphs. I was on my GS. Two of the riders decided to switch bikes and enjoy a different experience offered by the two models: A 595 and a 509. Going round a bumpy turn, the guy riding his buddy's brand new Daytona 595 went down. Another rider behind him (who was riding his own also-very-new 509) tried to avoid the downed rider, and he, too, went down. All of this happened in front of the owner of the 595 who was third in line. Much body damage to the bikes. But fixable. One rider experienced a nasty elbow gash requiring stiches. Two crashed bikes, three very unhappy owners. The worst part -- I was told by one of injured -- was that it was somebody else's bike that he crashed. Really bummed out. Moral: Think twice before loaning / switching bikes. If things don't go right, it is very difficult situation to deal with: Even a fully repaired bike will no longer be considered the same as a never-crashed bike by its owner. Regards, Roozbeh _______________________________________________________________________ Roozbeh Chubak AMA #552002 BOOF #1 BMWOA #38643 Village Idiot Idiologue Berkeley, CA BMWRA #21280 98 K1200RS: "Blue By You" DoD #6666 96 R1100GS: "Beau Geste" ======================================================================= From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Aug 8 12:07:53 1997 X-Routed: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:43:20 -0500 X-Tcp-Identity: Dandy Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 19:12:18 -0400 From: "Daniel H. Toth" To: Stephen Syrotiak Cc: Mike Furchert , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: winter Reply-To: "Daniel H. Toth" X-No-Archive: yes Stephen Syrotiak wrote: > > Yo Mike, > > This dude puts a taller windshield on the K75, digs out his electric > jacket and gloves; and, aside from freezing snow, it's biz as usual. > > It ain't the best, but it's riding... > > Steve > > The Ducati only gets used when it warms up to 55 deg.F. (no wind blast > protection) I knew a guy that lived upstate New York and put a sidecar on with tire chains and rode all winter! -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RIDE SCARED......... BMMRA #1262....BMWMOA #6587 Dan Toth; Warrenville, SC AIRHEADS #2491........IBMWR dtothNoSpam@NoSpamsouthconn.com SLASH 5...............ABATE 1973 R75/5 - Rat Bike BANG # 8 Lifetime-committed to OA Abstinence!...One-Day-At-A-Time! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Aug 8 21:03:01 1997 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:49:09 -0700 From: Sam Lepore To: Mike Barnett Cc: BMW Bikers Subject: Re: BMW: SWMBO signals - I have a needle but need a thread. Reply-To: Sam Lepore X-No-Archive: yes Mike Barnett wrote: > > there is any consistency in signals - do we each make up our > own or is there a common set used by all (most). So come Mike, In answer to your questions, no, yes, no. :) see: Motorcycle Sign Language by: Blaine Kamp LOC: 90-70440 ISB: 1-56002-072-5 $3.95 Pub: University Editions, Inc. 59 Oak Lane, Spring Valley Huntington, West Virginia 25704 When I bought the book 5 or 6 years ago, Blaine was the "Mgr." of BMW Motorcycles of Grand Rapids, 616-281-9881. Dunno if he still is. Back cover says ... Signs for: Directions, Surroundings, Rider Needs, Motorcycle Needs, Time and Numbers, and Many More Essential Words. All signs use only one hand - right or left. _________________________ Sam Lepore, San Francisco From GREG KINNEY <3672gkinnNoSpam@NoSpamumbsky.cc.umb.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:48:40 EDT From: GREG KINNEY <3672gkinnNoSpam@NoSpamumbsky.cc.umb.edu> Subject: BMW: Re; The worst thing to see on a ride In accordance with the wise comment "...they are out to get you" given us by deilenberger et.al. I offer my poor observation; SI HOSTES VISIBILIS, ETIAM TU If the enemy is within range, so are you! greg kinney mission hill '80 R100/7 "Kirstin" who is currently running hot for NO APPARENT REASON!!! PS. I HATE my new PLASTIC replacement airfilter cover it is less then aestheticly pleasing. From Don Eilenberger Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:24:25 -0400 Subject: BMW: RE: breaking tectonics???? (mebbe BRAKING?).. A not so bold and mebbe old rider asks (this more or less describes me fairly accurately..), so I'll try an answer.. and a few thoughts on some playing around I did this weekend.. >From: Frank Glamser >Subject: Re: BMW: RE: breaking tectonics???? > >Isn't it also possible that when people panic in mid-turn they tend to >shut the throttle down adding rear braking and a weight transfer forward. >For this reason I've read that option 2 might be light front brake only >and clutch in. Personally I'm not very good at any of this and would >appreciate comments from those who are. > >Frank Glamser "There are old motorcyclists, and there are >Hattiesburg, Mississippi bold motorcyclists, but there very few old, >'92 K75RT BMW RoM bold ones." I've been very carefully reading the cornering articles which have been appearing in Motorcycle Consumer News the past few issues (David Hough articles - good stuff).. and analyzing what I do wrong in cornering.. He pointed out last month - exactly what you describe as the #2 alternative above.. the answers are: Yes - backing off the throttle does cause rear wheel braking (and backing off suddenly is probably instinctive in a panic situation) and can reduce your 'traction pie'.. then if you add in hitting the rear brake - it would be very easy to lock it up and start sliding - which if you then let go of the rear brake (another bad instinctive thing once it starts sliding), you'll probably hi-side it when the rear wheel grabs again.. so David's answer was exactly what you said, pull the clutch in and use the front brake CAREFULLY.. This months article on cornering lines was interesting enough, that I went out and did the exercises he suggested. Spent an entire afternoon trying them. My conclusions (which are probably obvious to most people on the list) are: 1. I was usually in too high a gear entering a corner (although I've gotten quite good at downshifting one while in a corner with no real upset to the bike.. ) 2. I wasn't setting up for the corner soon enough. His rule was BRAKE before the corner (or downshift - or both) and accelerate THROUGH the entire corner. 3. He also discussed lines in corners, and stressed that if the situation allowed it - the least traction needed is by using the largest radius permissable (given road, line of sight, lane width, etc) to negotiate a corner - and in most instances this also provides you with the best site line going into the corner. SO - I went and tried working with all of the above. I'd learned shortly after getting the K100RT - that while it pulled nicely at low RPM's.. the best response (throttle on/throttle off) was at > 4,000 RPMS.. so I did all corners at more than 4K.. I learned on Sunday - that I did brake too far into a corner, adjusting for what I saw once I was in the corner. Started making a game of not braking if I could for corners - do it all with throttle prior to leaning the bike.. and then gently increase throttle while going through the corner. I learned on Sunday that I'd been picking lousy lines through corners.. I tended to do minimum radius corners - which if done too fast made me tend to go wide on exiting. SO - by using the engine, avoiding braking in corners, adding throttle as I went though the corner - all of a sudden corners I hadn't liked before became fun. I found the ones marked 20MPH - which used to cause me to tense up at 30.. - now were easily negotiable with no ass-pucker at 40.. 35MPH corners became basically the normal speed limit (mebbe 50-55).. using the right line in the corner increased my view through the corners, minimized traction needed and made for just a smooth arc.. Guess I could'a learned all this at "Class".. but for an afternoons fun by myself - couldn't beat it. Felt very pleased with what I'd learned.. now I just gotta go practice it until it becomes 2nd nature. I wouldn't claim to stop annoying some of the faster guys in my local club.. butt I hope I will be less of an annoyance (gotta bother them when the hyperlites go on in the middle of a corner!).. There is also a good article this month on left-brain/right-brain people.. I tend to be right-brain (analyzing the crap outta everything).. the suggestion in this article was Class or something simular.. gonna put it on next years schedule. Mebbe we can get a special - non-bold, old riders session! Don PS: Frank - like your sig.. been saying the same exact quote for years - which I first heard from my sometimes riding partner.. who just finished his 50th year riding without going down.. he's now 75 and doesn't show any signs of quitting.. ================================== Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ================================== "Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to the Correct Skull. Difficulties arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the the right skull. The Devil is always in the details." From "Phil Rupp" Date: 3 Sep 1997 08:37:51 -0400 Subject: BMW: FWD>thread>techtonics.."meb Mail*Link(r) SMTP FWD>thread>techtonics.."mebbe BRAKING?" Right on. I find my self doing the same. Maybe I am a weenie, a newbie, a slowguy. Evan Beach taught me to race cars on ice, SCCA style. He built for me a rebuilt Swedish cadillac, with .010 over bore, dual SU side draft carbs, and a gussied up suspension with gas shocks on four corners. Guy Light creamed every one with a new (then) 1984 Olds diesel 98 (front wheel drive). He just drove past us on the practice laps. Competition was by time, not wheel to wheel, so you had no idea how you were doing until you came back. I actually placed 3rd (as a new driver) by the time my wife said enough, and I had to go at dark. Evan's advice was keep your speed constant, always look through the corner to the next corner. Driving on ice with minimal traction is an exercize in driving skill. Time is lost when your traction goes. Of course, in a car you can't fall down. Evan's advice has translated into my moto-riding style. It is also a matter of comfort for me. I save on petrol expense, brake pads, and undershorts. Those folks who have trained to go fast, can and do. The technique of braking on the way into the corner compresses the suspension so that acceleration out does not require to adjusting a new geometry while leaned. I agree with Sam on his opinion on entry speed. All my best, Phil Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:39:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Hosmann95NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Re: Paying Tolls I just received the 1998 Harley Davidson accessories catalog in the mail. They sell a coin holder which has a clamp mount for any 7/8" - 1" tubular handlebar. It has three spring loaded coin holders similar to those found in some cars. The "change holder detaches quickly and can be attached to your belt or stowed in a saddlebag when away from your bike" according to the catalog. It cost $19.95. It's has a chrome finish and the H-D logo is printed on it in small letters. I haven't seen one live nor used one, but it seems like a good idea if your local tolls require change. Perhaps you might be able to find a similar one for less at an auto parts store and can rig up some kind of clamp yourself. It might be tough to use with leather gloves on, but is still probably easier than reaching into a pocket. I have a small magnetic tank bag which has a small mesh velcro-closed pocket on the end closest to the rider. I use this to carry a couple of singles when I know I'll be using toll roads around San Francisco. Steve Sacramento R1100R Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:18:51 -0400 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: RE: Paying Tools Living in the toll-center of the US, New Jersey (hey - the road ain't worth riding if it's FREE!).. >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:39:45 -0400 (EDT) >From: Hosmann95NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com >Subject: BMW: Re: Paying Tolls > >I just received the 1998 Harley Davidson accessories catalog in the mail. > They sell a coin holder which has a clamp mount for any 7/8" - 1" tubular >handlebar. It has three spring loaded coin holders similar to those found in >some cars. The "change holder detaches quickly and can be attached to your >belt or stowed in a saddlebag when away from your bike" according to the >catalog. It cost $19.95. It's has a chrome finish and the H-D logo is >printed on it in small letters. I haven't seen one live nor used one, but it >seems like a good idea if your local tolls require change. Seems like an extra $10 for the HD logo. Have one on each'a my bikes.. not made in the US - but exactly the same design from your description.. has a clip on the back for the belt function - or to use on the bike for the bigger tolls (dollar bills will stay in it fine on the RT). Chrome finish - bolts that rust at the sight of a cloud (replaced with stainless). Actually had some people from less enlightened (well, less taxed) states at Fontana ask me what it was for.. go figure! Available at lots of east-coast moto-dealers or from any dealer if they look in their Rocky-Tucker catalog. Cost was $9.00. >Perhaps you might be able to find a similar one for less at an auto parts >store and can rig up some kind of clamp yourself. For $9.00 - get the real thing. It actually works really well, butt needs one more coin thingie for 'tokens' (they way the NJ Parkway fools you into thinking they didn't raise the tolls..). I keep these - usually - in my tank-bag rear little pocket. If travelling the Parkway any distance they will load up in the quarters slot. >It might be tough to use with leather gloves on, but is still probably easier >than reaching into a pocket. It's actually very easy to use with summer gloves on, slide the coin upwards and it pops out in your fingers. Winter gloves - it's doable, but you gotta be a bit more careful. Much faster than digging around for the right change. Minor snip.. >Steve >Sacramento >R1100R Can't understand why they don't sell'em in Sacramento! ;-) Best, ======================================= Don Eilenberger Spring Lk Hts, NJ, USA deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ======================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:58:00 -0500 From: "Filak, John F" Subject: BMW: Toll Road Strategies (Long) Living in the Mid-Atlantic area is filled with wonderful toll paying opportunities. I have developed some that I can share. 1) Recycle old tire tubes. I usually cut out hefty rubber bands from them. I keep a fat one strapped around my front brake master cylinder. This I use to stuff with rolled-up dollar bills; keep them separate rather than in a wad. If the toll is not a round dollar amount and I receive change, the change is easily stuffed into my jacket pocket. 2) Unless you are just traveling through a strange area, you will know if there are roads that offer tokens. I buy tokens for roads I use regularly. In most cases they save you money. For any given trip using a particular road, I reserve a pocket in my jacket just for tolls, usually the left. Before I leave the house, I take the amount of tokens I will need and put them in that pocket. When approaching a toll, I carefully grope in my pocket for the token (even with gloves on), pull the token before entering the exact change or token lane, then pop the token in the basket as I motor through. This is surprisingly easier than it sounds. 3) The Garden State Parkway in New Jersey is best traveled with tokens. This is because there are toll booths located incrementally along the road, rather than the ticket system found on other roads such as the N.J. Turnpike in which you pay once when you exit. Also, the toll is $.35 which is an odd amount to gather in a hurry. 4) The Pennsylvania/New Jersey crossings are also good token opportunities. This is because the toll is $.50 each way and a roll of 20 tokens only costs $4.00. Buying tokens here reduces your toll outlay to $.20 each way for a 60% savings over cash! 5) Look for those rare toll avoidance situations. Some bridges have eliminated tolls each way in favor of a "double" toll in one direction only. Sometimes you can take one bridge for free in one direction, then another bridge for free in the opposite direction. NYC had a bridge and tunnel situation like this once, but they soon realized it and fixed it. 6) On the N.J. Turnpike I once had a thing running where I acquired extra toll tickets. I kept switching the real ticket for one from nearest the exit I was at and .... Well, you get the idea. Tolls are a PITA no matter how you look at it. John Filak Lafayette New Jersey USA From: "Baxter NAO02, John P" To: "'thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net'" Cc: "'IBMWR List e-mail'" , "'R1100 List e-mail'" Subject: RE: Only $10 for traction? (Was 'My Kind of Fun') Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:02:58 -0400 Encoding: 97 TEXT Tom, I chose your question as typical for response purposes. To answer your question, the '$10 for traction' is a technique Keith uses to demonstrate various things (like $ bucks) that can be ""USED UP"" while riding, i.e., concentration, traction, etc. which cause subconscious Survival Reactions (SR's) to take place in your mind, moving your physical reflexes to react in the way it (the mind - your subconscious self) thinks will save you from injury or death (the body's automatic survival system takes over, in the form of your automatic reflexes; here Keith's system leads you into, and possibly through, this doorway of perception and auto-reaction and into the world of control available to you, beyond the SR thresholds that exist in your sub- and un-conscious selves ). Yes, there are more folks inside ya than just YOU! One of these doods keeps yer heart beatin' on time an sich, how about a little bit of that!! Whats HIS name? HA HA! (Go for it Harold!). These are the "doods" that Keith Code is trying to reach and instruct!! For example, when you enter a corner at a high speed, let's say you have only so many traction $ to spend, so to speak (all of your tire tread to the sidewall, cylinders that will touch down and lift your wheels, how much spring left 'till the suspension bottoms out (all of the foregoing concerns traction), and your own guts which are filled and flumed with experience, the Concentration Factor). If you spend all of your given bucks at the entrance to a curve due to a bad choice of line and overcook it with too much speed, you've spent all of your traction $ savings before you really need it, which is after the turning point and as throttle roll-on occurs. You run wide in panic because you have no more "traction" bucks to spend, your concentration shifts (using up those concentration $) to the outside edge of the road (where you DON'T want to go, the BAD danger point, the edge beyond which you have NO control) , you tighten up and roll off the throttle, jamming on the brakes, standing the bike up (using up that traction $), and you then go off into the netherworld, just where you were looking when panic struck. You spent all your bucks only halfway through the turn.....and hopefully pick up yer stuff. Similar to the martial arts thing of 'looking through your target', in an opposite sort of way, if you may. See it as 'Control of the Self' beyond the everyday way of reaction to input to the five senses. Nothing to do with the actual cost of physical objects (or maybe it does, ultimately, if you choose this game of motorcycling as your playing field!!). I recommend Keith's books (Twist of the Wrist (TOTW) Vol I has the little "devils" (SR's) that steal your bucks), Volume II of (TOTW) is almost entirely filled with high performance technical riding technique. I find his classes very educational for the committed high performance rider. Keith's schools are much more technical than Pridmore's CLASS Racetrack Safety Schools. Check out Keith's books and perhaps a CSS or CLASS racetrack session. Call either Keith or Reg's schools, they will talk to you, but it's better to ask for help at the actual schools. Talk to the doods who wrote the books and race the race...... All fun and a good value for your real dollar!! I am currently unsubbed from the IBMWR and R1100 lists due to employer constraints, so I am operating blind here and I apologize for the cross-posting. I only posted the "My Kind of Fun" story for the enjoyment of any who would be amused or interested. Tom, if you are seriously concerned, I hope this helps. If you are a graduate of Keith's Level 3 and pulling my leg, then sorry for the bandwidth, Prezzes!! Take it in or toss it as you wish!! Best Regards, John John B. Portsmouth, VA 1995 R1100R "Whisper" 1974 R90/6 "Old Black Dog" Harold/Tony - Please pass this on to Chris Blazie, I do not have his e-mail address and would appreciate it on a rebound. J >---------- >From: Thomas Hundt >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 7:10 PM >To: Baxter NAO02, John P >Subject: Only $10 for traction? > > >What is meant by this remark of Code's? > >I don't get it -- tires cost a lot more than that... > >Thanks, > > NoSpam@NoSpam Tom Hundt http://www.slack.net/~thundt/ > -_/L> '86 K100RS SF CA USA W=+1-415/597-2216 AMA/BMWMOA/DoD/IBMWR > ()7=() Saved IBMWR articles --> http://slack.net/~thundt/Bmw/index.htm > Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 23:46:23 -0700 From: Greg Hutchinson Subject: Re: BMW: In the wind..... John Downey wrote: > > Yesterday the gusts got up to 46 mph in the Bay area. Going over the Bay > Bridge was not the most fun I have had on a motorcycle. What I realized > (during those moments I was able to think and not simply fear) was that I > do not know the best way to deal with gusts of wind that threaten to push > my bike over a lane or two (or me over the railing). > > So here are some of my questions: > > 1. When hit by a gust, do you accelerate, slow down, or remain at your > current speed? > > 2. Do you lean, or try to steer in any way? > > 3. I've heard that you should put all of you weight on the pegs and steer > with you knees....does this work? > > 4. How much is to much wind to be out in on a bike? > > El Nino is coming fast. Any help would be most appreciated. > > thanks, > > John Downey > Oakland, Ca. > '97 R1100RS HI John, If you ever travel over I-5 or any of the Bay bridges this time of year, you learn real quick that the trick is to keep the speed even and keep pushing that handlebar into the wind, even if the bike is WAY over. Watch out for the towers on the GG and overpasses which block the wind and set you upright. Also watch which lane you're in. The design of the SM and Dunbarton bridges make the wind curl up and over and hit you from the opposite side once you're up on the elevated portions. Weight on the pegs help alot. People think I'm nuts, but in a real strong consistant crosswind, I sit up straight and ride with only the upwind hand on the grip and push like crazy. Similarity to sailing in the Bay. Know the wind. I've done this in 50 mph winds down by Coalinga for over 100 miles south. Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 14:53:49 -0400 From: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com Subject: BMW: ?? What to do when your sliding ?? >>Joe Monenschein wrote: >> >> All, >> >> This morning coming into work I was taking a right >> hand turn and hit some sand (a common occurrence in >> Denver). Anyway, my instinct was to put my right >> foot down and kick off of it. Something tells me >> that there is some physical reason why this is a >> waste of time and only puts you at more risk of >> hurting yourself. My rear-end grabbed and I went >> on my merry way with a slightly accelerated heartbeat. >> So -- does anyone know what experienced road racers do >> in such a case? >Slight weight shift in the direction of the skid, counter steer, also in >the direction of the skid - - and of course, if it's real bad, crap your >drawers >Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico Maintain throttle position (**do not** close it or whack it open), keep body relaxed (especially arms and hands), keep eyes looking ahead to where you *want* to go, and ride it out. Gary - NYC Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 08:01:27 PDT From: "Tom Hill" Subject: BMW: Re: bmw-850 gearbox >From France: > >Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:56:57 +0100 > >From: "Maurizio Buzzi" > >- - Clonky gearbox action, especially from first > into second. Previous Hondas > >giving much smoother changes. > > > >Anybody suffering from similar snags? > > > >Ciao. > > > >Maurice (Easy Rider) A. Buzzi > > >From Aus: Hi Maurice, I've learnt to ride to suit the gearbox on my R1100RT, shifting up at about 3100 RPM produces very smooth shifts. Regards, Jim Peters Australia. >From Oregon: Even thought the 850 lacks a tachometer you can get a feel for what makes it "clunk". It's a combination of RPM and timing. when it's really wrong it will kick you in the left toe! Still a great bike.......... Tom Hill Oregon R850 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:56:24 -0800 (PST) From: spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com Subject: Re: BMW: Headlights & Intersections I also waggle the bike when being followed close- it makes 'em think I'm going to fall in front of 'em! On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, rwmundayNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Robert W. Munday) wrote: >Spike, > > >On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:49:32 -0800 (PST) spikeNoSpam@NoSpamhevanet.com writes: >I have found that waggling the bars when approaching an intersection is >very effective- it makes the headlight beam swing side to side >>> > > > >Having a fairing mounted headlight, I tend to swerve or "waggle" from >side to side when approaching an intersection to create the impression >that I am a vehicle to be watched. We pilots call this the >"Messerschmitt Twitch"... ME109 pilots during the big war had no rearward >visibility (and no room in the cockpit), so they would occasionally swing >the plane from side to side to get a look at anything approaching them >from behind. I'm just carrying on the German tradition. > > > > >Robert Munday... Montgomery, Alabama >`89 K100LTA K-Whiner #47 LW #2 Village Idiot Rolling Broccoli >Rider > > > Spike Cornelius 85 K100(S) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:28:54 -0800 (PST) From: Dana Priesing Subject: BMW: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves Los Presidentes: Gordon Jennings wrote an interesting (at least to me) piece in the December '97 issue of Motorcyclist, at pp. 10-11, about braking in corners. He describes two basic methods: 1. "Classic Geoff Duke" or "Throw it Down, Pop it Up" Method: "You do your braking upright, then flick the motorcycle quickly over to its maximum lean angle and proceed on the largest-radius path at a constant speed. Your line begins at the [road's] outside edge, arcs to the inside and continues on to end at the outside again, where you snatch the bike upright and again apply full throttle." 2. "Bakersfield Line" Method: "The Bakersfield Line is a parabolic arc produced by braking nearly all the way to a turn's apex, and accelerating just as nearly all the way away from it. A parabola is what you get by working tires to the traction limit in all directions, staring with 100 percent braking; then shifting to progressively less braking and more cornering until all of the tires' traction is taken by cornering loads; and finally doing the same traction apportioning between cornering and acceleration." I was intrigued by this passage, especially because Gordon argued in the piece that the Bakersfield Line was a safer method for sport touring. You gotta learn to brake *and* turn, not just brake *then* turn, he seemed to be saying. The dogma I'd been taught was that if you were on the brakes, you had messed up to begin with, and the appropriate method would be to find a smooth speed that required the least possible use of the brakes. Those Prezzes who have followed me through curves know that my brake light rarely is illuminated. Paradoxically, Gordon seems to imply that I'm *slower* for riding this way (because I could wick it up *and* use the brakes more effectively). So, I throw this to the list, hopefully for some interesting discussion: which of the two methods of handling curves above do *you* use (or another one altogether), and why, and what are the consequences (e.g., method #2 = more tire & brake pad wear?). Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) From: Dana Priesing Subject: BMW: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves, Cont. Oh Most Esteemed BMWophiles: Lotsa Prezzes have responded to my first post, saying that the Bakersfield Line Method (brake and turn) and the Throw it Down, Pop it Up Method (brake, then turn) are for 10/10ths racing only, and that Gordon Jennings was talking about racing techniques in his piece in December's Motorcyclist. Au contraire. To quote Jennings again: "I once did an analysis of the two approaches to cornering, and I believe I proved the constant-arc [Throw it Down, Pop it Up] line was better, in a perfect environment. In the real world of racing, ***or fast road riding***, you have to alter your line to avoid rough patches and accommodate combinations of curves. In these situations you must, repeat must, be able to brake and turn at the same time." "Fast road riding." That's us folks. He's saying the Bakersfield Method (turn *and* brake) gives you a better safety margin if you are a fast sport tourer (and I think most folk who buy BMWs consider themselves such). Initially this advice seems counterintuitive, but then, so does countersteering, so I don't dismiss it too quickly, certainly not on the ground that it's a 10/10ths only method or that it contradicts conservative MSF dogma. What I was wondering is what Prezzes are using at 6/10ths and 7/10ths -- which likely is where a good many of us ride. Anybody out there feathering the front brake through the turns to learn how it feels, to see how much the bike wants to stand up, to get a sense of where the traction begins to trail off? I think that's the sort of practice Gordon is talking about. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:51:57 -0800 From: Roozbeh Chubak Subject: Re: BMW: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves At 9:28 AM -0800 11/15/97, Dana Priesing wrote: > > The dogma I'd been taught was that if you were on the brakes, you >had messed up to begin with, and the appropriate method would be to find a >smooth speed that required the least possible use of the brakes. Those >Prezzes who have followed me through curves know that my brake light rarely >is illuminated. Paradoxically, Gordon seems to imply that I'm *slower* for >riding this way (because I could wick it up *and* use the brakes more >effectively). > > So, I throw this to the list, hopefully for some interesting >discussion: which of the two methods of handling curves above do *you* use >(or another one altogether), and why, and what are the consequences (e.g., >method #2 = more tire & brake pad wear?). I use the "Classic Geoff Duke" or "Throw it Down, Pop it Up" Method and try not to use my brakes when I am approaching a curve. I find that to be much smoother than fast decelleration through braking followed by fast accelleration And in most case, smoother *is* faster. For racers who obviously wish to be the fastest, braking hard as they enter the curve will give them the best results. But you have to be *real* experienced to do this well. Here is why: The critical thing is how much to brake/deccelerate. If you over-brake, you have slowed much more than you need and you end up taking the turn slower because you have to spend more time accelerating to make up for the unnecessary slow-down; if you under-brake, it can be a costly (and painful) mistake. And because of the very short time you spend braking [and the high rate of decelleration] it is very hard to guage how you are doing; it takes real experience to brake just the right amount. Since I started shooting for "smoother rather than faster" I have ended up becoming much faster. :-) Regards, Roozbeh Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:21:24 -0500 From: "Stan Walker" Subject: BMW: Re: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves, Cont. IMHO Hard braking in high speed turns (on paved streets) and posterior pucker power are directly related. One small patch of ice, oil, layer of sand, or pile of wet leaves, will put the average rider down on the hard cruel pavement. If you want to play with this, practice in the dirt, on a smaller bike. You get to learn about what happens when you lose traction (front or rear) at much lower speeds, falls onto dirt are softer then pavement, bike repairs cost less, and cars don't run over the top of you afterwards. I would put a 'smiley' here but I don't see any humor in this. Stan Walker Longmont Colorado R1100RT think less.....lean more..... Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu (jim roche) Subject: BMW: Braking Arcs For BMW (A-2-B), Open Road. > >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:16:55 -0600 >From: "Michael M. Cornett" >Subject: Re: BMW: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves > >At 09:28 AM 11/15/97 -0800, Dana Priesing wrote: > >> I was intrigued by this passage, especially because Gordon argued in >>the piece that the Bakersfield Line was a safer method for sport touring. >>You gotta learn to brake *and* turn, not just brake *then* turn, he seemed >>to be saying. > >I don't know about safer, but it's gotta be a LOT harder to do it right >with (it seems to me) more dire consequences if you screw it up. But, then >maybe I'm saying that because I never did it on the "Bakersfield Line." :-) > >Mike (watching the snow come down) > >Downtown (Chicago) Mike Cornett >'95 BMW K1100LT "K Bueno" (multicultural license plate) >Texan-in-Exile #1, BOOF # (I forget), MOB #6, Reindeer Rider >IBMWR, MOA, RA, AMA, IBA >'97 MN 1,000 '97 Utah 1088 Dear Mike, and thank God for that. Your are still here with us to tell it the way its been with a rider of your experience and long safe miles -- and the way it still the heck is. The Bakerfield line is a "track learned" observation while the Duke methiod is a "street-open road learned" observation. Anybody thats gets too far into "squaring off" "catanery arch" corners is going to be written home about someday - and thats all there is to it. The Duke arc is the most forgiving if trouble does occur and depends the least on perfect road (traction) conditions. To drive a BMW fast, either K or R, you need to learn how to brake all the way thru if necessary, well into it if necessary, and of course, coming out of it when rarely necessary (decreasing radius like some of those in the Gap)-----while still maintaing the larger radius, "Duke" arc. Why do you think that the great Kenny Roberts never ran the Isle Of Man? He was of the "square it" school which ruled the tracks of that time --- put it took the likes of Mike Hailwood to master that 37 mile course. He was a master of the extended arc, extend lean, non hangoff style of road rideing -- a rider who ran the Isle like the real road conditions he had learned his fine style on. A very different rider than those who learned their trade on tracks with "designer corners" to be repeated over and over - --- like at a regular track. The Duke polished, and Hailwood improved, the "deep arc with braking as needed" methoid that still rules the renagade open road runs when overall safety and repeatability are a major concers. Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu high performance old twins http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jroche/index.html Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:08:27 -0600 From: "John L. Wilson" Subject: Re: BMW: TECH: Braking Styles in the Curves For me, smoothness has always been my desired objective and I have been told that if you can achieve smoothness in corners, speed will come with it. Most of my training for cornering comes from seasoned MSF instructors who are also racers. They hammered the idea that you should be completely set up, including having braked to achieve your desired entry speed into the corner and to choose your line --all before you enter the corner. Choose the widest arc possible for corners you can not see around so that you can aggressively countersteer and apply power as needed to get you around the corner. Getting set up properly before you enter the corner gives you a chance to pop the bike up and hit your brakes in a panic stop if necessary or to lean/countersteer more and hit the power to pull you out of trouble. Along with any style is head turn. Look to where you want to go. I sometimes get lazy on my head turns and find myself drifting so I will over emphasize my headturns until I am back into the proper headturn habit.. It works for me. Bottom line, in my opinion, is that cornering involves several skills and techniques of which braking is just one element. John ================================================================= John L. Wilson '95 R1100RS BMWMOA HSTA #5817 STOC #090 jlwilsnNoSpam@NoSpamFlash.net '96 R1100GSA(For Sale) IBMWR Tulsa, Oklahoma ================================================================= Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:07:24 +0800 From: "Victor M. Kimura" Subject: BMW: Hip flexor cramps Ralph F. Couey writes about "K75RT vs K1100RT & cramps." >Now for the rest of you on the list, I've noticed riding in cold >weather (40 degrees or less) that I'm getting painful cramping in my >hip flexors, to the point that I've had to pull over and massage them >out. Is this just age or is there some stretching I can do to >alleviate this problem? TIA Ralph, I'm assuming your pain is not caused by wornout cartilage between the hip socket and the femur (hip bone) at a specific compression point, caused by the lifting of your right leg over the saddle. If not, here's a fairly easy hip flexor stretch. Lie on your back with both knees bent. Cross one leg over the other, as if you were sitting down, ankle atop knee (i.e., the "immodest" way that men do it, not the modest technique that women in skirts have to employ). With your hands, clasp the uncrossed leg, either behind the thigh or in front of the knee, and gently pull toward your chest. Relax, keep breathing and pulling, and do the stretch for 20-30 seconds. Repeat with the other leg. (The hip flexor of the crossed leg is the one being stretched.) Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:32:22 -0500 From: Josh Ascher Subject: BMW: Snow Riding I ride a lot in the snow. Best advise I can give is get a rat bike, add a sidecar and a lap apron, and use an old (rat) rainsuit to get all the dirty slop (keeping yourself clean). Josh Ascher ascher26NoSpam@NoSpamworldnet.att.net > Snow is coming now, and the only time I tried to ride on snow was with a > 125cc I laid twice in 10 meters. > > I now (proudly) ride a GS, and would like your opinions about using it on > snow: tires to use, precautions, general snow riding advice, etc. > > Thanks a lot > > Jean-Stephane Szijarto jssNoSpam@NoSpamjstechno.ch > R1100GS Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 06:51:28 -0700 From: Steve Aikens Subject: Re: BMW: Snow Riding Josh Ascher wrote: > > I ride a lot in the snow. Best advise I can give is get a rat bike, add a > sidecar and a lap apron, and use an old (rat) rainsuit to get all the dirty > slop (keeping yourself clean). This is the first really sound advise I've seen concerning snow riding. Some years ago, I lived in Colorado Springs and rode in the snow every winter I was there. Although I rarely used the sidcar rig, the "rat bike" (in my garage right now) was my daily rider, with an old rainsuit to keep the splattered road grime off. Try to ride in the soft stuff, sit back on the seat to transfer your weight to the rear tire and ride slowly. If you start to lose it, point to a safe spot to fall and let it go. Pretty easy to learn to aim a falling bike in those conditions, and pick it up to flop it down again....Under the right traffic conditions, it's actually fun! - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:40:49 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: Re: Traffic Senors At 09:02 AM 12/29/97 -0600, Mark Rooney wrote: > > From Digest #3330: > >>> Same problem here in Wa. State. Yesterday my buddy and I were >>> rolling back and forth, stomping our feet rying to get the sensor >>> to pick us up. >> >> >>A tip that I picked up, and have used (works 90% of the time) was to >>shut off the engine, then restart it. > > Besides using this technique, I will also do a weaving motion over the >rectangular box (which I guess holds the sensor) in the asphalt as I >approach an intersection. I've heard that this gives the bike more exposure >time to the sensors, and I've had it work for me. For those that do not know, what you see as rectangles are wire coils. They are used in an oscillator circuit and the oscillator frequency and or amplitude changes when you put an iron mass into it. The rub is that motorcycles are low iron mass. Frequently when they set them for bikes, cars next to them will set them off. :(:( Also, they are affected by water, so in wet and snowy climates it gets worse. You might be gettint iron a bit closer to it, and setting it off, or you might just be lucky and then think that it was due to what you did. Just an observation, not a knock, but you should know me and correlation and causation by now. ;);) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | To infuse moral concepts into a political discussion is simply to | | confuse the issue.... Morality is not involved in achieving policy. | | - William Fulbright 1959 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 10% #3 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:15:18 +0000 From: bobNoSpam@NoSpamknights.cablenet.co.uk Subject: BMW: Re: Neck - Back Pain & crash hemet weight. Re: Neck Pain Two very good books on how to look after your backs & necks and promote good posture (which could be the basics to avert problems in the first place): "Treat Your Own Neck" by Robin McKenzie. Spinal Publications New Zealand Ltd. ISBN 0-473-00209-4 "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie. Spinal Publications New Zealand Ltd. BUT BE CAREFUL - every individual requires an individual assessment and treatment of their condition - GET PROFESSIONAL ADVICE BEFORE BEGINNING ANY PROGRAMME OF EXERCISES. You might also think about crash helmet weight. Lightest is about 1200grms going up to 1800grms (50% more) - that's a lot of weight swinging around on your neck vertibrae - particularly if you have wear & tear on the joint (spondylosis) which most people have to a greater or lesser degree. Regards Bob Knights (Hastings UK) KMS Advanced Motorcycle Training Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 05:28:24 -0500 From: "Larry Wilbers" Subject: BMW: Defusing road rage. The AAA mag has an article on how to appologize on the road when you do something stupid. Most adaptable for motorcyling is to shrug your shoulders and hold your head down at the same time (keep your eyes on the road). Another is to smack your helmet with your left hand. Larry in Columbus X-Sender: simmondsNoSpam@NoSpammail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:30:45 -0800 To: Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com, ldriderNoSpam@NoSpamusaa.net From: Jeff Simmonds Subject: Re: BMW: '99 Butt Prep Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Jeff Simmonds X-No-Archive: yes X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ X-Copyright: (c) IBMWR and the original author(s). Gary, FWIW, I have a 5 gal cell on the rack of my LT. I have to tell you it affects my handling alot less than having my 7 year old son on the back.. (It is much better behaved and sits still, never leans the wrong way in the curves.. ) Seriously, the effct on handling isn't significant, and I am not one to dog it around the corners.. . besides, after a couple of hundred miles, you move the weight down to the main tank anyways.... As for where to get it, Reno does do a very nice job of installing, etc. if you are going to have it done, I would recommend having it done there if you can get there. If you are just looking for components, there are other sources. It really depends on how much advice you want/need. If you know what you want ot do, Summit Racing has the Cells (RCI vs. the Fuel Safe that Reno uses), check valves, fuel umps, etc. Add hoses, petcock, etc. and you have what you need. Most of this stuff should also be available through your local performance shop... If you want alot of advice, getting the stuff from Jan will make lots of help available too... As for expecting 45-48 mpg from an RS, I hope I never got tht old and slow that I consistently can get that kind of mileage... ;-) You obviously aren't there either. Jeff (happy when the Fuel Plus stays around 40E for a while... ) At 09:42 AM 3/17/98 -0500, Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com wrote: > > >One thing that plagued me continuosly while riding the '97 Iron Butt >was range...or, more accurately, lack thereof. Before the start, I was >expecting to get 45-48 mpg from my K11RS. As it turned out, most >likely because of the barn-door Aeroflow screen, extra weight, and >maybe even the tiny PIAA 1000's, I was lucky to get 200 miles from one >tank of gas. Stopping for gas every 2 - 2.5 hours is a great way to >throw off your rythm. In the future, I want to stop when I *want* to, >not when I have to. I don't want to have this problem again in 1999. >I'm getting an auxilliary fuel cell. > >Since excellent handling is a priority of mine, I have decided to >install the fuel cell in the passenger area. This position negates the >the influence of the extra weight as much as possible (anybody >dissagree?), sorta like carrying a light passenger. > >Since I'll soon have a Corbin seat, I will soon also have a extra seat >pan. I'm thinking about sending the pan to Russell and have them build >a Day-Long saddle for the driver only, and either cut off the passenger >section or leave it bare. > >Which would be best: > >Cut off the passenger section and mount the fuel cell to the frame > >-or- > >Leave the passenger section bare and mount the fuel cell to the seat >pan. > >My thinking is that if I have the passenger section in place, I will >still have the tail-section covered/protected and will still be able to >use the tail-section storage compartment. Also, after the IB is over, >I can remove the saddle and fuel cell as one component, and re-install >as one component as needed. > >Is the seat pan material strong enough to withstand the mounting of a >fuel cell? If not, can I reinforce it with something? > >Is there anything I'm overlooking here? > >Is Reno BMW *the* place to get what I need? > >Does anyone in the north east have experience in fuel cell >installations? > > > >Oh - Where can I get a Reynolds Rack and what should I expect to pay >for one? > > >TIA! > > >Gary - NYC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\Eudoramail\WINMAIL1.DAT" > > ============================================================================ ===== Jeff Simmonds - Altadena, CA '97 K1100LT AMA #538775 '87 K100RST IBA '76 R90/6 IBMWR '86 GL1200SEi ENA #3 simmondsNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net X-Sender: mketchumNoSpam@NoSpamshell16.ba.best.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:14:06 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Mark Ketchum Subject: Re: BMW: (No BMW) Motorcyle passenger rules. Cc: WXP Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Mark Ketchum X-No-Archive: yes X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ X-Copyright: (c) IBMWR and the original author(s). WXP (Walt?) wrote: > < many s n i p s throughout > >I've compiled this list of rules that I require anyone who has never ridden or >I still consider to be naive to read, and would like to pass it along to the >list. > >Boots preferred. Hightop leather mandatory as a minimum. Ankles are expensive. > >Gloves preferred. Gloves mandatory. This is as important as a helmet. > >Boots and gloves are mandatory if the ride will commence or end and >it is anticipated to be chilly. (Under 60 deg. Fahrenheit.) I've never been on a ride that did not both commence *and* end. =8^) > >If something is wrong or you are uncomfortable, don't hesitate to >signal to pull over. Establish the signal ahead of time. Make it obvious and easy. > >When in doubt, keep your body perpendicular to mine, and watch the road >ahead to anticipate upcoming turns. I think you mean parallel. =8^) In a turn, look over my *low* shoulder. Your list is pretty good, and it's better to have such a list at all than to try and make a universal one. I am lucky to live in a climate where it is almost always temperate enough (!) to wear full protective gear. _____________________________________ Mark A. Ketchum http://www.ketchum.org Berkeley & San Francisco, California