From rwilesNoSpam@NoSpammail1.com (Roger Wiles) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:50:59 -0700 Subject: BMW: RA Rally Complaints/Addresses, etc Following are addresses and telephone numbers, FAX numbers and E-mail address of various parties that may be interested in your comments about the reception we received at the BMW RA in Fontana! rally last weekend. Robinsville NC Chamber of Commerce Rob Mason, Director PO Box 1206 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 3790 robmasonNoSpam@NoSpamrocketmail.com The Graham STAR Kate Henry, Editor PO Box 69 Robinsville NC 28771 704 479 3383 Ray Williams, County Commissioner Chairman, Graham County Commission PO Box 575 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 7960 Jerry Crisp, Sheriff Graham County PO Box 575 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 3352 The Honorable James Hunt, Governor State of North Carolina 116 W. Jones Street Raleigh NC 27603-8001 (704) 733 4240 Mr. David L. Kerr, General Manager Fontana Village Resort Highway 28 PO Box 68 Fontana Dam NC 28733 (704) 498 2211 FAX (704) 498 2209 Colonel W. W. Horton Commander, NC Highway Patrol 512 N. Salisbury Street Raleigh NC 27626 (919) 733 7952 col.e.w.hortonNoSpam@NoSpamsmtpgw.aoc.state.nc.us Smokey Mountain Host (Regional Tourism Board) 4437 Georgia Road Franklin NC 28734 (800) 432 4678 The ASHVILLE CITIZEN-TIMES (regional newspaper) PO Box 2090 Ashville NC 28802 (800) 800 4204 FAX (704) 251 0585 editorNoSpam@NoSpamcitizen-times.com I was personally very offended by the treatment received by myself, my party, the rally officials and rally-atttendees in general by the local and state law enforcement personnel. It was DISGRACEFUL! (IMHO) The Graham County officials' capricious, last-minute decision to cancel our beer-service license caused the rally to undoubtedly lose money; had rally-organizers known about this in advance (a local merchant told me that decision had been made, and was local knowledge, at least 3 months before the rally) it is possible - even LIKELY- that a new rally location would have ben chosen. Graham County NC wants our tourist money, but seems to enjoy the opportunity to intimidate motorcyclists, play with cop-toys and exemplify southern "bubba" law enforcement and political power at it's sterotypical worst. At least, that's what I think. Prezz Roger RWilesNoSpam@NoSpamMail1.com Unsubbed, reply direct- thanx! From daliNoSpam@NoSpamnetrox.net (Dali Meeow) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BMW: Police Tactics at Fontana Hi Gately, When the police violate your rights, you have two choices. Sue or shut up. Unfortunately, the police were sued last year after staging the same type of illegal traffic stop on hundreds of bikes. The court decision was: Police were found guilty. Penalty nothing. Court found there had been no damage to the bikers. I lied about the second option. Do not shut up. Tell the NC tourism commission, tell the governor, tell the Fontana, Asheville and NC Chamber of Commerce, and tell other beemer rider ... go to NC but do not spend any money there. Stay in SC, Tenn, Ga., get gas before you go into NC, pack a lunch and then go into NC. Tell them you are canceling reservations for a company seminar in NC and will be holding it in Va or XXX instead. Vote with your dollars. RA and MOA are you listening. We would like for you to let NC know they are off the list for conventions and meetings. For the clincher, tell them Dali Meeow and the Royal Fur Ball Production Company has designated NC as a litter burial site. Stephen, of cousel. From BEEMERHILL Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:10:16 -0500 Subject: BMW: RE: Addresses for Fontana & the LAW Gately Bartlett wrote: I spoke wih Terry at AMA this morning, and he was able to give me the following addresses. I sincerely hope that many folks write to complain about this aberrant treatment. It will be another black mark for the Carolinas, and the best way to make our point will be to withdraw our "tourist dollars" from their communities. And what a shame. Hats off to the folks at Fonatana Village, and to the local citizens who made us feel so welcome. It is too bad their hard-earned tax dollars were squandered so recklessly by some nimrod who has been sitting through his/her 20th viewing of The Wild Bunch & Easy Rider. By sending out letters, we can be assured that whoever ordered this Police Campaign - - and it was ordered by somebody - will catch some flack. Thank goodness it wasn't MY tax $$$ - or I would be really pissed... OFFICE OF THE GOVERNOR JAMES B. HUNT, JR 116 W. Jones Street Raleigh, NC 27603 send copies to: Attorney General State of N. Carolina P. O. Box 629 Raleigh, NC 27602 ----- ----- ----- Crime Control & Public Safety Department Hwy Patrol Division Col. E. W. Horton c/o Richard H. Moore, Secretary P. O. Box 27687 Raleigh, NC 27611 ----- ----- ----- Travel and Tourism Department Director Gordon Clapp 430 N Salisbury Street Raleigh, NC 27611 Sorry - I don't have n address for Graham County yet, nor addresses of the local newspapes for letters to the editors. Can anybody help me out with these? Thanks! I realize that most of us tend to be pretty apathetic, generally speaking. I hope the BMW community doesn't just sit back and let the police continue to assault our rights as outlined in the Constitution. It may be time for me to join ABATE again. Sue Rihn-Manke From rwilesNoSpam@NoSpammail1.com (Roger Wiles) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:42:34 -0700 Subject: BMW: Complaints/Addresses, Revised Following are addresses and telephone numbers, FAX numbers and E-mail address of various parties that may be interested in your comments about the reception we received at the BMW RA in Fontana! rally last weekend. Robinsville NC Chamber of Commerce Rob Mason, Director PO Box 1206 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 3790 robmasonNoSpam@NoSpamrocketmail.com The Graham STAR Kate Henry, Editor PO Box 69 Robinsville NC 28771 704 479 3383 Ray Williams, County Commissioner Chairman, Graham County Commission PO Box 575 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 7960 Jerry Crisp, Sheriff Graham County PO Box 575 Robinsville NC 28771 (704) 479 3352 The Honorable James Hunt, Governor State of North Carolina 116 W. Jones Street Raleigh NC 27603-8001 (704) 733 4240 Mr. David L. Kerr, General Manager Fontana Village Resort Highway 28 PO Box 68 Fontana Dam NC 28733 (704) 498 2211 FAX (704) 498 2209 Colonel E. W. Horton Commander, NC Highway Patrol 512 N. Salisbury Street Raleigh NC 27626 (919) 733 7952 col.e.w.hortonNoSpam@NoSpamsmtpgw.aoc.state.nc.us Smokey Mountain Host (Regional Tourism Board) 4437 Georgia Road Franklin NC 28734 (800) 432 4678 The ASHVILLE CITIZEN-TIMES (regional newspaper) PO Box 2090 Ashville NC 28802 (800) 800 4204 FAX (704) 251 0585 editorNoSpam@NoSpamcitizen-times.com American Motorcyclist Association, (AMA) 33 Collegeview Road Westerville, OH, 43081-1484 Tel.(614) 891-2425 FAX (614) 891-5012 e-mil: AMANoSpam@NoSpamCISCOMPUSERVE.COM I was personally very offended by the treatment received by myself, my party, the rally officials and rally-atttendees in general by the local and state law enforcement personnel. It was DISGRACEFUL! (IMHO) The Graham County officials' capricious, last-minute decision to cancel our beer-service license caused the rally to undoubtedly lose money; had rally-organizers known about this in advance (a local merchant told me that decision had been made, and was local knowledge, at least 3 months before the rally) it is possible - even LIKELY- that a new rally location would have ben chosen. Graham County NC wants our tourist money, but seems to enjoy the opportunity to intimidate motorcyclists, play with cop-toys and exemplify southern "bubba" law enforcement and political power at it's sterotypical worst. At least, that's what I think. Prezz Roger RWilesNoSpam@NoSpamMail1.com Unsubbed, reply direct- thanx! From: Dan Arnold Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:43:11 -0700 Subject: BMW: Law Enforcement at BMW Motorcycle Rally To: > Robinsville NC Chamber of Commerce > Rob Mason, Director > PO Box 1206 > Robinsville NC 28771 > (704) 479 3790 > robmasonNoSpam@NoSpamrocketmail.com > Colonel W. W. Horton > Commander, NC Highway Patrol > 512 N. Salisbury Street > Raleigh NC 27626 > (919) 733 7952 > col.e.w.hortonNoSpam@NoSpamsmtpgw.aoc.state.nc.us > > Smokey Mountain Host (Regional Tourism Board) > 4437 Georgia Road > Franklin NC 28734 > (800) 432 4678 > > The ASHVILLE CITIZEN-TIMES > (regional newspaper) > PO Box 2090 > Ashville NC 28802 > (800) 800 4204 > FAX (704) 251 0585 > editorNoSpam@NoSpamcitizen-times.com Gentlepersons: I understand an alcohol permit was cancelled and law enforcement made it's presence heavily felt at a recent conclave of BMW motorcycle riders. This was unfortunate. The result will likely be that rallys in your area (if they happen at all) will have far fewer participants in the future. This is no small matter because these BMW riders seem to be willing to travel thousands of miles to attend their functions. For reasons I do not fully understand, BMWs seem to attract a rather dull group of middle aged, frequently professional men and women whose idea of a wild time consists chiefly of riding curving mountain roads approxmately twice as fast as their counterparts on Harley-Davidsons. When these tired old folks finally take a break from their 500 mile (and up) per day rides, they sit together quietly, smoke cigars, drink beer, tell lies and go to sleep. Though I personally do not fit this stereotype and have been known to cut loose with a dirty joke now and then or even on occasion to exceed the speed limit, I have attended a number of these convocations. I have never witnessed nor heard of a law violation more serious than a speeding ticket or anything more disturbing than loud snoring. Sure, once and a while some geezer has a heart attack, but I attribute that to nothing more outrageous than age and diet. Perhaps your area's law enforcement policies (or rumor detection apparatus) should be reviewed. Sincerely, Daniel M. Arnold Attorney at Law Washington State Bar Association #10575 =========================================== DAN ARNOLD 425 N COLUMBIA CENTER BLVD N-207 KENNEWICK, WA 99336 509-783-9740 509-734-8708 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:14:55 -0400 From: joutlanNoSpam@NoSpamiag.net (John H. Outlan) Subject: Re: BMW: Back From Fontana (Buford T. Justice) On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:44:00 -0700 (MST), "Malcolm A. Meyn" wrote: |:< |: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:33:16 -0400 Subject: BMW: Fontana & Police The actions by the local police & state troopers, if preplanned, which they seemed to be (they had to mobilize that kind of force in advance) were a likely violation of our constitutional liberty interests, specifically our right of association. If any of the prezs intend to write anyone in response, it's important to write the right folks. This was action by political persons & by bureaucrats. They don't answer to anyone but bigger political fish and, hopefully, the local constituents. The only way to get the attention of such types is to go over their heads to the larger political powers in the state. For that reason, I recommend letters to Senators Helms & Faircloth, with copies to the local Robbinsville, Bryson City etc. press & copies to the local sheriff and the State Superintendent of Police. The letters I sent the Senators are requests that they investigate the use of federal funds to violate our constitutional rights. If any prezs want a copy, please email me. It is especially important that North Carolina residents write their Senators and Congressmen. The addresses for the two Senators are set out below. If a number of people write, something may happen. Honorable Jesse Helms Honorable Lauch Faircloth 403 Dirksen Office Building 317 Hart Senate Office Building Washington, DC 20510-3301 Washinton, DC 20510 jesse_helmsNoSpam@NoSpamhelms.senate.gov senatorNoSpam@NoSpamfaircloth.senate.gov On a happier note, the rally was terrific and the roads as good as I remembered them, particularly when out of Graham County, away from Checkpoint Charlie. Mark Flynn Winchester, VA From Mark Rooney Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:28:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BMW: Re: Law Enforcement at BMW Motorcycle Rally Just what happened in NC that prompted the overseeing by law enforcement officials of the RA Rally? I was there in Morganton last year for the MOA Rally and saw hardly a badge, either at the rally site or on the BRP. Was I being blind or were they just more stealthy a year ago? There was that occurence at the Red Cross rally in South Carolina a couple of years ago, I figured that after the AMA filed suit against various SC law enforcement agencies that it would settle this happening again (obviously not :-(. Mark Rooney k75ryderNoSpam@NoSpamballistic.com Tyler, TX '94 K75 "Mick" MOA, RA, ET BMW+, IBMWR From Frank Glamser Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:53:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: BMW: Back From Fontana (Buford T. Justice) On Thursday afternoon I was stopped by a roadblock on the Cherohala Skyway by N. C. county deputies. I was approaching from the west. They had what I assume was a drug dog. The cursory way my license was read led me to believe it was a ruse to allow the dog to sniff my bike. Frank Glamser "There are old motorcyclists, and there are Hattiesburg, Mississippi bold motorcyclists, but there very few old, '92 K75RT BMW RoM bold ones." From tevansmdNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:56:27 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: 1998Chattanooga1998 Lunch.. The GRAND GAP EXTRAVAGANZA!! Timing *Is* Everything, huh? FIRSTLY, I think Tom Keen's idea (reposted below) is GREAT!!! I'm all for it and am IN. BUT This past weekend's experience in Graham County, N.C. has left a bad taste in my mouth from only a few Bad Apples, IOW, The Law Enforcement. Number one, I feel that The People of the County, State of N.C. and surrounding area as well as The South *may* be getting a bad rap here. It was ONLY the Cops of Graham Cty, the nearby State Police (who 'bought' the rumor that the Graham Cty Police were spewing about us) - in addition, the nearby TN police who were at Deal's Gap and Cherubical Pkway are to blame. The People were superb, IMO. They appreciated our presence and $$$/per day/person that we spent. UNFORTUNATELY, because of the Law Enforcement - talk about Long Arm Of The Law - I cannot, in good faith subject myself nor my wife of ANY potential possibility (redundant?) that would land me, my big Yankee mouth riding with NY plates in Jail. Sorry, I have Zero Tolerance for that. I say this: Tom, see what happens with the letter-writing. See what happens with the potential law suits. See what happens come October 24th, where TWO of my personal friends HAVE to go back up there to see if they'll get any change from their $200 and have no criminal record. I'm optimistic. But on the other hand I'm a realist - despite all the letter writing, suits, AMA involvement etc. - I haven't seen a change in Spartanburg. Funny, I have a ton of maternal family there but because of the treatment they exhibited a few years ago at a BMW event - they, haven't seen my smiling face or my dollars either. It's not about N.C. - Morganton's MOA National was nearby to the RA's Fontana. The yearly Maggie Valley Hot Springs Rally is yet closer as are several more that makes one do a Deal's Gap and The Cherohala Parkway. I haven't heard of this type of harassment. Like I said: Let's play 'Wait and See' - see what becomes of this - your idea for next year's Chattanooga Gathering is a fine one, however, I in good conscience, cannot take my dollars up there (Graham County) again and have to worry about the possibility of posting bail. Timing is everything. TERRY-Miami On Mon, 22 Sep 97 13:59:09 +0000 tom_keenNoSpam@NoSpamcoax.net (Tom Keen) writes: > >The First IBMWR Lunch did not happen this year for a number of >reasons.. the prime one being, the conflict with the RA rally in >Fontana. > >But.. for 1998 (yes.. it's early but you will soon understand why) >Walker Powell and I have a great plan. To pull this off we need you >to look at your calenders and make a commitment... > >Two miles from the top of Deal's Gap is a wonderful Inn.. The Tapaco >Lodge. > >Several presidents stayed there last weekend and can attest that it >is a really nice place, run by really great people. There are 25 >double rooms. About half of them are in little cottages on the >hillside, overlooking the river. > >Well.. I reserved the whole place for the weekend of September 19th >1998 for IBMWR. The plan is to take all the rooms on Friday the 18th >and Saturday the 19th. And then have dinner at the Inn. The Inn is >willing to provide cots if you want to crowd in yourroom, they have >no problem with mattress pads on the floors and the owner is looking >at indoor and outdoor camping. > >NOW TO KEEP THE RESERVATION AND TO HAVE THE ENTIRE PLACE TO >OURSELVES.. > >I need to get tentative commitments for all the rooms. > >So this week please let me know if you would like to plan on >attending. > >Cost should be around $70 per double occupancy per night, which >includes a full breakfast. Dinner will be extra.. They are working >up the final costs and I will make them available as soon as I get >them... > >All I need now is a "yes.. I will be there" > >Name: >email address: >how many in your room >etc etc.. > >Let me know.. this will be the best IBMWR Gathering ever...!!! >a Gather worth planning ahead for. > >Tom Keen > ******************************** > Tom Keen - Dayton,Ohio USA > tom_keenNoSpam@NoSpamcoax.net > IBMWR, BMWMOA > ******************************** > > ------------------------------ From Don Eilenberger Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:08:40 -0400 Subject: BMW: Fontana over-reaction by police Dear Mr. Mason, As head of the Graham County Chamber of Commerce, you must realize the financial impact that the BMW-Riders Association had on the local area. This impact, conservatively guessing must have exceeded $500,000, and was probably a great deal more. When I first rode into Robbinsville, I believed that we were welcome guests in Graham County - the large banner welcoming us to Graham County gave that impression. The lead article in the local paper describing our event and the participants also gave the impression that we were welcome in Graham County. Any local people I spoke with were friendly and appeared happy to have us as their guests. Unfortunately - one group apparently did not welcome us in Graham County. The police - who I believe were local and county officers (the ones I saw). From the actions they took in making us unwelcome, it appears there was a lack of communications between your police forces and the general populace. I won't review any of the actions I heard about second-hand but one first-hand observation is worth noting: I passed some of the command posts the police had set up. It was impressive to see that Graham County is rich enough to afford police cars sitting idle while the officers were eating at a nearby picnic table, and rich enough to afford the full time use of a helicopter. I know that my local community couldn't afford the expensive waste of public resources that I saw in Graham County. Has anyone calculated what the cost to the taxpayers for this extravaganza was? Overtime? Helicopter hours and cost? If it was the intent of the police to make motorcyclists feel unwelcome in Graham County - they ably succeeded. I'm sure by this time, the police officials are claiming publically that they prevented a disaster or riot or the word I heard "rumble". Given the record of BMW motorcycle events (and I'd suggest checking with the police in the Morgenton area) the probability of any of these events does not even exist. All I can see that the police accomplished is making 2,200 tourists who were spending money in your area feel unwelcome. I for one, and everyone I've spoken with who attended the rally intend to give Graham County a wide berth in the future - by motorcycle or by automobile. It may not seem that 2,200 less return visitors to the area is significant, but each of these 2,200 people will probably tell several other people who were not in attendance, plus many of the 2,200 people are very active on the Internet (where the story is receiving wide circulation), so I would predict that the impact on tourism in Graham County may be much greater than initially perceived. I predict that these actions by your police will also have an impact on other events planned by motorcycle organizations for the North Carolina area. Since this area had been a popular venue for events such as the 5,000 people BMW-Motorcycle Owners of America rally 2 years ago in Morgenton the long-term implications will be significant. In my own case - my family asked me to take photos of the Graham County area since they wanted to take a vacation in your area next year. We will be going to a friendlier environment instead. Yours truly, Don Eilenberger Spring Lake Heights, NJ ================================== Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ================================== "Ultimately most problems can be solved by applying a Large Brick to the Correct Skull. Difficulties arise when you don't have a brick or can't find the the right skull. The Devil is always in the details." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:09:09 -0400 (EDT) From: LegalRNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana & Police In a message dated 97-09-23 09:36:41 EDT, you write: > The actions by the local police & state troopers, if preplanned, which > they seemed to be (they had to mobilize that kind of force in advance) Hi Mark~ I didn't attend, but have read with interest all the posts regarding the rally. It seems to me, as you have expressed, that the "actions by local & state police" was preplanned, and therefore "approved" by some rather highranking police officials and probably others in the food chain of government. I also suspect that "others" have known and approved, [perhaps tacitly, perhaps overtly] because it does not seem logical that anyone in authority would risk such a thing on his own without the benefit of knowing that the necessary "cover" would protect him. It appears quite obvious to me that anyone would know that there would be a rather vocal protest resulting from such absurd police conduct. I think the intended message is "We don't want you!", "Take your motorcycles somewhere else!" Certainly not everyone in N.C. shares that opinion, especially those who benefit from the commerce, but who would dare permit such police conduct if not preapproved by higherups able to provide sufficient cover? Unless there is someone's head rolling on the floor shortly, I believe that we may be missing the message. Just my thoughts. Larry Miller Wallingford, VT - --- John Outlan replying to Tony Meyn wrote: > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:44:00 -0700 (MST), "Malcolm A. Meyn" wrote: > > |:< > |: |: really > |: |:< > |: |: > Tony, > > Normally I would _tend_ to agree with you, but in this case I don't. > The cops up there _reacted_ to nothing. Everything they did to harass > us was pre-planned. Some of the cops were just following orders, > while some were just plain ignorant. More than one President was > arrested on bogus charges (in the campground, on foot!), and they > still have to deal with it _now_ after the rest of us have gone home > to move on and plan the next rally. I agree totally with the > sentiments of Roger Wiles. > > =46or the edification of those that did not attend, below are just the > incidents that *I* know about. Please correct me if some facts are > misconstrued: > > Notifying RA of pulling the beer permit at the last minute when the > locals knew up to 3 months in advance. > Raiding of tents on Wednesday night by the police without provocation. > A President taken to jail while walking through the campground for > 'impeding the flow of traffic'. Didn't move out of the way of the cop > car fast enough. Argued on the way over to Robinsville about the > bogus charges, so the cop added a 'drunk and disorderly' charge. > Six (maybe more?) riders written up on Friday night by cops for > relieving themselves behind trees on the campground. > Sting operation at front entrance of campground. Outbound riders were > checked for drinking and drug use. > Police scanners indicated the cops were 'itching' to raid the > campground, lay everyone on the ground and bring in the drug sniffing > dogs. > Police road blocks whereby weary arriving riders were ordered to dump > their camping gear and be searched. > Deals gap roadblock. > Other Roadblocks I can't even recall where..?. > Ed Jorgenson told myself and a group of others the RA intended to > pursue some type of legal action. > > Can anyone add to or correct any of this? > > I expected a Morganton style open arms treatment that 2000 plus people > will be coming into this small community, many with their families, > and spending money. But, it wasn't that way, AT ALL........ > > Nonetheless Fontana was a blast for me, primarily because of being in > the company of some Presidents and Idiots, Broccoli Riders, Poverty > Riders and Coonbottomers, but a certain aspect of the whole thing was > very ugly, and we (the riders) didn't make it that way. The staff at > =46ontana Village issued a letter of apology to the rally attendees, for > the way in which the rally attendees were treated by the local police, > which was read to us Saturday night in the "Broccoli Cabin". This > third party letter of apology lends credence to this harassment > 'theory' that I now and some others have stated as being the case. > > Point taken, BUT given the type of hostile environment we were > experiencing there, those riders that successfully evaded the cops > were nothing short of heroes IMO. Ever watch any of the Billy Jack > movies ;-). > > I would encourage those that attended to look over the contact > information supplied by Roger and others, and do some letter writing, > especially to the AMA, Chamber of Commerce and local Papers. > > That particular part of NC is never going to see another cent of my > money unless the RA gets some satisfaction, at a minimum an official > letter of apology from the law enforcement hierarchy. > > John O. > > |:< > |: |:< > |:<> I also witnessed an unknown rider on an R1100RS (red) who was = > fleeing > |:<> "Buford T. Justice", sirens and lights going, the whole nine yards. > |:<> This rider was about 5 seconds ahead of Buford, came around a sharp > |:<> turn and pulled in behind a motorhome at the Texaco station next to > |:<> the campground. Buford fled past the rider in hot persuit, then the > |:<> rider rode out and ducked into the vendor area, wiping off his brow = > as > |:<> a gesture. Buford returned in five minutes with sirens and lights = > off > |:<> looking for his elusive prey. > |:<>=20 > |:<> Any rider out there want to stand up and take a bow? > |:<>=20 > |:<> Nice going. > |:<>=20 > |:<> John O. , report to follow entitled "What a long strange trip it's > |:<> been", or maybe "The Battle of Fontana", or ??......:) > > =20 > =BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB= > =BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB=BB > > John Outlan - Lake Mary, FL (Orlando) > joutlanNoSpam@NoSpamiag.net Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:23:54 -0400 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: Fontana Rally Repercussions I've taken the liberty of forwarding an email (with permission) I received from Roland Slabon of the Vintage BMW Motorcycle Owners: >X-Lotus-FromDomain: HOUGHTONMIFFLIN >From: "Roland Slabon" >To: deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com >Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:46:36 -0400 >Subject: Fontana Rally Repercussions > > >Dear Mr. Eilenberger, > >A friend just copied me on your letter to Rob Mason of the Graham County, >NC Chamber of Commerce. > >Having been made privy to the sordid police activity by others who attended >the RA Rally, I echo your sentiments. Although I did not personally attend, >I know that a sizable number of the 5,600 plus members of Vintage BMW >Motorcycle Owners, Ltd. participated, and I know I can speak on their >behalf. > >For the past 25 years, our Vintage Club has always been a major player at >the annual rallies hosted by both the BMW Riders Association and BMW >Motorcycle Owners of America. We are the third largest BMW motorcycle club >in the world, with members in the US, Canada and 18 other countries. In my >26 years of riding, I have never been witness to such heinous police >behavior as happened at Fontana. Even during the worst years of the Laconia >Riots in the early 1970s, the New Hampshire State Police and National Guard >chose to ignore the innocent motorcyclists, and properly concentrated their >effort at curbing the antics of the few drunken outlaws. > >News of the treatment you and other attendees received at the hands of >hooligans in police uniforms was appalling, both to me and to Robert >Hellman, who will undoubtedly take up his pen (or his keyboard) and >editorialize at length about it in "On The Level". I plan to do likewise in >the pages of the "Vintage BMW Bulletin". Such aberrant behavior by those in >authority, if left unanswered, will soon become the norm, as I fear it may >already have become in certain parts of North Carolina. > >I wonder what sort of reception BMW motorcycle riders would have received >had the rally been held in neighboring Spartanburg, SC. I'm certain had the >BMW advance team received such a welcome as did the hapless Fontana Rally >participants, BMW would have sited its new factory elsewhere. > >Feel free to pass this letter on to those in North Carolina who are still >of a mind to listen, as well as to anyone else on the Internet. > >Sincerely, > > >Roland Slabon >Editor >Vintage BMW Bulletin >P.O. Box 67 >Exeter, New Hampshire 03833 USA > > > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:39:45 -0400 From: joutlanNoSpam@NoSpamiag.net (John H. Outlan) Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana, letters, send NOW On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:37:30 -0400, James Allmond wrote: snip report from the front lines... |:< |: Subject: Re: BMW: FWD>RE>BMW- Fontana, harass Roozbeh, This is a dangerous attitude, Rooz. What I am picking up from your post is that intimidation tactics such as you experienced in N.C. might be justified for other motorcycle groups, but not for BMW riders. Sorry, that just doesn't fly. Why are you "sure" BMW riders are better behaved? Perhaps the county fathers around Fontana should talk to the good people of Paonia, CO. They host multiple rallies a year including a BMW rally and a Harley rally and welcome all. In fact, to me this is a model of how a rally and town can exist for the benefit of each other. Best, Tony Meyn On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Roozbeh Chubak wrote: > I am sure BMW riders as a whole are so much better behaved than many other > motorcycle groups coming to town en mass that many local authorities are > pleasantly surprised at how little trouble was caused during the > visit/rally etc. BMW people who set up these rallies and deal with the > locals should bring closure to any just-completed rally through a series of > correspondence on "We loved visiting you" and receiving such responses as > "it was great having you." Such letters can be shown to future rally hosts > to alleviate their concerns. > > > Regards, > Roozbeh > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:56:46 CST-6CDT From: "Bob Oelschlager" Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana - blame? 'pears to me that the folks who put the rally together (sorry, don't know 'em from Adam) ASS-U-MEd that the locals would just love to have the rally crowd and their bux for a few days. Well now, isn't it interesting that the general populace, specifically including John Law, has negative opinion of motorcyclists that they carry with them while going about their daily business. As any semi hip 16 year old could attest: "DUH!" Why should "they" dismiss their prejudices just because the rally was attended primarily by BMW riders? The typical good ole boy gun totin' badge flashin' lawman ('er -person) down south very likely needs to be ordered to "be nice" to furriners by the HMFWIC. It is ASS-U- MEable to think that the rallymeister(s) had a "public relations" job to do that didn't get done or didn't get done effectively. Perhaps in a different locale, the PR job wouldn't be needed. I'd like to think that people are basically good, but time and time again, I am reminded of how false an ASS-U-M(e)tion that can be and all the Fontana stories I've read seem to bear this out. What a damn shame. Future Rally-meisters live and learn and don't ever EVER forget to "sell" yourself/club/group/project/rally in the most positive of ways 'cuz sometimes people turn out to be no damn good anyway. Plan, plan, PLAN!!! Lest I forget, all cops don't suck, just the ones with Baditude and malice in their hearts. I have a couple of good buds who just happen to be both professional law enforcement officers and good as gold. But they have some bretheren who are, um, shall I say "less than professional". Gee, I feel better now. Thanx for puttin' up with me. BobbyO ********************************************************** Robert Oehlschlager Internet: BOBBYONoSpam@NoSpamABN.UNT.EDU Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:04:37 -0400 From: Mark Flynn Subject: BMW: RE: RA Contacting Local Yokels in Advance I'm not an RA officer, no position other than as a member, so no dog in the fight. At the rally, one of the RA officers told me that they did, indeed, have a meeting w/the police agencies involved, to let them know what to expect. As told to me, the police agencies were hostile then, and didn't want to have the facts (our demographics, etc.) get in the way of ignorant prejudice, the father of their pea-brained, mean spirited actions. BTW, I still encourage letters by NC residents to Governor Hunt, Senators Helm & Faircloth & the local Congressman. I suppose we could use the old one: "Fuck you. Strong letter to follow." I hope not. - -- Mark Flynn Winchester, VA Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:55:35 EST From: bkeaheyNoSpam@NoSpamuswest.com Subject: Re: BMW: RE: RA Contacting Local Yokels in Advance Addressed to: Mark Flynn BMW Listserv ** Reply to note from Mark Flynn Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:04:37 -0400 > At the rally, one of the RA officers told me that they did, indeed, have > a meeting w/the police agencies involved, to let them know what to > expect. As told to me, the police agencies were hostile then, and didn't > want to have the facts (our demographics, etc.) get in the way of > ignorant prejudice, the father of their pea-brained, mean spirited > actions. If this is true, the RA goofed in not changing the location for the rally at the time as soon as police hostility became known. Bruce G. Keahey, U S WEST Advanced Technologies, Boulder, CO "Never annoy anything that you can't outrun!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:51:14 -0800 From: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) Subject: Re: BMW: FWD>RE>BMW- Fontana, harass Tony Meyn sed: >Roozbeh, > >This is a dangerous attitude, Rooz. What I am picking up from your >post is that intimidation tactics such as you experienced in N.C. might be >justified for other motorcycle groups, but not for BMW riders. Sorry, >that just doesn't fly. Why are you "sure" BMW riders are better behaved? > >Perhaps the county fathers around Fontana should talk to the good people >of Paonia, CO. They host multiple rallies a year including a BMW rally >and a Harley rally and welcome all. In fact, to me this is a model of how >a rally and town can exist for the benefit of each other. > >Best, >Tony Meyn > > >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Roozbeh Chubak wrote: > >> I am sure BMW riders as a whole are so much better behaved than many other >> motorcycle groups coming to town en mass that many local authorities are >> pleasantly surprised at how little trouble was caused during the >> visit/rally etc. BMW people who set up these rallies and deal with the >> locals should bring closure to any just-completed rally through a series of >> correspondence on "We loved visiting you" and receiving such responses as >> "it was great having you." Such letters can be shown to future rally hosts >> to alleviate their concerns. >> >> >> Regards, >> Roozbeh >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Roozbeh Chubak AMA #552002 BOOF #1 >> BMWOA #38643 Village Idiot Idiologue >> Berkeley, CA BMWRA #21280 97 K1100LT-SE >> DoD #6666 96 R1100GS >> ======================================================================= >> >> Dear Tony: This is not a matter of attitude but facts. I remember hearing an account a number of years ago of the reluctance on the part of the local authorities to agree hosting the BMWOA annual rally at their locality. The MOA people who were discussing this with them then produced a letter from the authorities at the prior year's BMWOA rally who had basically said they were so pleased to discover BMW riders had been so much better behaved than other motorcycle groups with which they had had past experience. I understand this letter did the job and was responsible for removing the final hurdle to agrreing to host the rally at the following year's site. (Perhaps one of the MOA oldtimers can confirm this account.) Tony, what on earth gave you the idea from my that I had any thoughts about the behavior of Harley riding groups one way or another? If you picked up from my post that "that intimidation tactics such as you experienced in N.C. might be justified for other motorcycle groups" you are dead wrong. Talk about a reach! I would not want to see intimidation tactics used against *anyone*, not even against low life groups such as white supremacists. The purpose of my post was to simply suggest we have ways of demonstrating BMW riders are better behaved than the populance at certain localities might have expected. Regards, Roozbeh _______________________________________________________________________ Roozbeh Chubak AMA #552002 BOOF #1 BMWOA #38643 Village Idiot Idiologue Berkeley, CA BMWRA #21280 '97 K1100LT-SE DoD #6666 '96 R1100GS ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:58:59 EST From: bkeaheyNoSpam@NoSpamuswest.com Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana - blame? Addressed to: "Bob Oelschlager" bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com ** Reply to note from "Bob Oelschlager" Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:56:46 CST-6CDT > Future Rally-meisters live and learn and don't ever EVER forget to "sell" > yourself/club/group/project/rally in the most positive of ways 'cuz > sometimes people turn out to be no damn good anyway. And if you can't, or don't, close the "sell", take the rally elsewhere Bruce G. Keahey, U S WEST Advanced Technologies, Boulder, CO "I don't know just how long I'll be gone, But I'll be back when I run out of road." - John Brannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:03:01 -0800 From: roozbehNoSpam@NoSpamwco.com (Roozbeh Chubak) Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana Whiners (NO BMW) At 8:23 AM 9/24/97, Tom Nash wrote: > > >Duner, > >I am going to make an assumption here, and you correct me if I am wrong: >My assumption is that you are a person of color. > >>White people moved < > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Ummmm, excuse, me, but didn't you just identify yourself as a racist? > >It works two ways, Duner. Who's going to stop first, you or me? Maybe we >could both stop at the same time? Now there's an idea... :) > >Don't apply for a job at my company - as a racist, you would not meet the >"Zero Tolerance" standards for racist and sexual harassment. > >Tom Nash >'94 K1100RS >San Francisco >---------- >I am neither Athenian nor Greek. I am a citizen of the world. > - Socrates >---------- No, Duner is white. I read Duner's post and it did not at all struck me as racist. What I read the post to say was that how we were treated in NC is the way blacks are treated everyday everywhere. (I did not quite understand his reference to whites moving there 15 years ago.) I know Duner; I have spent time with him and I have never detected any traces of bigotry in him. Regards, Roozbeh Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:03:17 -0400 (EDT) From: WARUSZEWSKNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Re:Tell em were commin/hide the womin In a message dated 97-09-24 10:13:08 EDT, you write: << I agree with Jim Coburn and feel that planners for our large-scale rallies owe it to the attendees to make preliminary contacts with the local authorities to smooth the way,>> As large as some of these events have become, I am amazed that this has not come up sooner. It really should be a courtesy to any community to let them know that the terror in our hearts is not directed at them. As part of a peace keeping network I am sure that a few hundred, let along a few thousand persons, bikers or not, would cause anyone to say "What the f***!" << to let them know the character of the rally-goers, >> Now your going to get in trouble again. Or, they may simply hide their women, alcohol and sheep. But, what the hay, Pinnocle and O'duals izn't all bad. VIC WARUSZEWSKI, SoD # 21, VI #1 MOA 85 K100RS BMW Touring Club of Detroit MOA#1, Motor City Beemers Team K-Basa # 3 http://pages.prodigy.com/bmwtcd We'll have some high times, and live them low. Get some fast food and eat it slow. I'm hungry when I get up, and sleepy when I eat. Only time I feel right, I got the road beneith my feet. - The Fabulous Thunderbirds ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: WARUSZEWSKNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Fontana VS Morganton Iz anyone aware of any mis-haps that occured in Morganton? I seem to recall "Welcome BMW Riders" signs just about everywhere. This extreem change in attitude makes me wonder if there are other factors here that we not be aware of. I do not want to play Devil's advocate, but it has frequently suggested that I go visit. VIC WARUSZEWSKI, SoD # 21, VI #1 MOA 85 K100RS BMW Touring Club of Detroit MOA#1, Motor City Beemers Team K-Basa # 3 http://pages.prodigy.com/bmwtcd We'll have some high times, and live them low. Get some fast food and eat it slow. I'm hungry when I get up, and sleepy when I eat. Only time I feel right, I got the road beneith my feet. - The Fabulous Thunderbirds Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:46:25 -0400 From: "aaronNoSpam@NoSpamrocketship.com" Subject: BMW: suggestions on fontana letters just an off the cuff suggestions for people who might be sending letters of complaint about their treatment at the fontana rally. - -no expletatives or name calling - -specific details of each and every incident that you personally observed or or were subject to. - -do not cast dispersions on local cops, focus on their leaders. - -briefly state your experience at previous rallys particularly in terms of criminality particularly fights and violence. - -your background. age profesion, lack of criminal record if applicable just a thought. - -what you will tell others about visiting the area. and remember I wasnt there but you fight for us all. A Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:19:42 -0400 From: "Ted Hall" Subject: BMW: Fw: police harrassment Rob Mason is open game, load and fire - ---------- > From: Ted Hall > To: robmasonNoSpam@NoSpamrocketmail.com > Subject: police harrassment > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 5:05 PM > > Dear Mr. Mason > I attended the 25th Riders Association Rally on the 18 through 21 of > September. While I was there, I had seen a fairly large contingency of > police in and around the Fontana Villiage area. As I was appointed Chief of > Security within the ranks of BMW motorcycle community I felt a little > overwhelmed by the number of professional police surrounding the area. As > in all the Rallies that I have attended in the last ten years, I have never > seen so much police activity. We have always had a few local cops around, > and I think that is a benefit, but never an Army. Helicopters, mobile > police command center, squad cars a plenty, drug dogs, come on, what the > hell is going on? > I was stopped in a road block on top of Deals Gap, along with many other > motorcyclist. The cars were stopped also, but were not asked to produce any > paper work. I, and several other motorcyclists were asked to see their > drivers license. My bike has legal registration, visible, legal state > inspection, visible and I wear over a thousand dollars worth of protective > clothing and helmet, also ,visible. Why was I singled out? I have no clue. > It seems to me a little excessive to have a force as large as that out in > the field for such an event. Who gets to pay their overtime, the county. I > know for a fact that the tax payers in my state would go ballistic if that > were to happen in Vermont, not to mention the tourist bureau. > This incident has forever been stored in my experiences that I will never > return to Graham County for any reason. I can and will spend my vacations > in another part of the country where I am welcomed. And I shall tell of > this experince to anyone that is contemplating a visit in your area and I > will be sure to discourage anyone from going there. > Ted Hall > hfrmystrNoSpam@NoSpamvermontel.com > AMA MOA RA (VT,STATE DIRECTOR) AIRHEAD > BMW MOV BMW GS BMW SE ME OSBMW YANKEE BEEMER > 75 90/6 TABS-TRANS ATLANTIC BIKESHARE > 83 R80 ST TOURSHARE MEMBER Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:53:55 -0400 From: "Gary Brown" Subject: BMW: Fontana Area Policing Practices This message is in reponse to a request for specific policing incidents that BMW Riders Association Fontana Rally participants were involved in, or personally witnessed. The incident involved being stopped on the North Carolina side of Deals Gap for no apparent probable cause other than the fact that I and the group that I was with were riding motorcycles. It happened on Friday, September 19, 1998, about 1:30 pm. The checkpoint was staffed by both North Carolina Highway Patrol and Graham County Sheriff's deputies. No badge numbers. We were required to stop in the middle of the road and produce our driver's license. It did not appear that the automobile or truck traffic was receiving the same requirement. My group was camped at the Fontana Swim Club area. While we were riding Friday morning (see prior paragraph), other campers in our area reported harrassment from sheriff's deputies who threatened to search tents, but left without taking any action. I can report their significant irritation. It appeared to me that we as a group were not welcome. I would have expected that kind of roadblock if I were touring in Mexico, but not Graham County, North Carolina, United States of America. I live in a north Atlanta suburb, and ride north Georgia mountain roads regularly for recreation. I have never been subjected to that kind of treatment. I had looked forward to bringing my family back to the Fontana area for a vacation to visit that truly beautiful area. Too many other recreational opportunities exist, however, where I will not have to worry about the biases of the local law enforcement. I will not likely return to your area. Yours truly, Gary A. Brown Acworth, Georgia Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:00:29 +1200 From: "KLEIN, DEAN" Subject: BMW: Re: Another Fontana Letter Fellow biker scum, The following is a letter I sent to Mountain Express, the primary source of information and news in Western North Carolina. Tourist season is coming to WNC for "leaf season". Many, many visitors will see this. Dear Editor, Every year, motorcyclist from around the US and the world arrive in Asheville during the summer months. Honda holds an annual event where thousands of riders come to WNC. They have a good time, enjoy the beautiful area, spend millions of dollars in the local economy, and then go home. It is a win-win situation for the motorcyclist and the people of the Asheville Area. The BMW Motorcycle Riders of America decided to hold their International Rally at Fontana Village Sept. 19-23 this year. It seemed like an excellent choice, based on the fact that other large motorcycle rallies have taken place in WNC. Unfortunately, the event did not go as planned. Riders where welcomed to Fontana and Graham county by a large police presence. For 2,200 motorcyclist, an expected nice weekend in the mountains turned into one of roadblocks, helicopters overhead, and more. At the last minute a beer license for the event was canceled by the local constables. Needless to say, it was not a happy situation. Tales are flying fast and furious over the internet about the event. Riders are reporting being stopped up to 4 times over the course of the weekend. At most roadblocks, only motorcycles where stopped, not cars. One vender was arrested for drinking a beer in front of his vender tent. A criminal court judge from Virginia that attended the event noted "...their entire presence (police) was one of intimidation rather than assistance". The question has been raised: how much did Graham county spend to have so many police officers on duty? How much did the helicopter cost to maintain and keep in the air? And the most important question: Why? Since when does a group of predominately middle aged upper class motorcyclist represent a threat? Letters have been sent to the Governor and both Senators complaining about the treatment of motorcyclist in Graham County. Some riders are calling for a boycott of NC and others are vowing never to return. The information about the weekend and how motorcyclist are treated in Graham County, NC is being heard around the US and the world. Riding a motorcycle is not a crime, but apperently in Graham County, NC it's reason enough to be stopped, searched, and treated with suspecion. Sometimes I'm embarrased to call North Carolina home. Sincerely, Dean Klein McMurdo Staion, Antarctica Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:18:40 -0400 From: austin01NoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (mark austin) Subject: BMW: comparison of Fontana and Paonia I had the pleasure of attending the rally at Paonia, CO this past summer and I saw a very positive example of how a local community (including the police) and rally goers can both benefit from the rally. The local volunteer fire dept played a group of riders in softball, the intercom on a local police cruiser was used for the closing ceremonies, money was donated from the rally to several local organizations (including the police), etc. I have attended several rallies and I have never fealt more welcome than I was in Paonia. The police in Fontana should look to Paonia for guidance. And, by the way, if you have not attended the rally in Paonia, I suggest you try to make it next year. Mark Austin austin01NoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com dmaust01NoSpam@NoSpamulkyvm.louisville.edu Louisville, KY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:22:14 -0500 From: BEEMERHILL Subject: BMW: North Carolina - Reciprocity ?? Hello all, Just had a good friend ask if I could seek out information from you all about his citation (Thank you Graham County.) 1) If he does not pay it, what states have reciprocity with NC? 2) It was mentioned over the campfire (another rally lie, perhaps?) that there are federal guidelines for setting court costs as they relate to the citation. The terms mentioned were that court costs should not exceed 40% of the fine. If the citation was for $10.00, doesn't $80 in additional court costs seem steep? Has anyone heard of these guidelines? And if you have, where can I access them? TIA - Sue Rihn-Manke Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "James M. Dodmead" Subject: Re: BMW: The Blitz and Fontana Once I got Gately's synopsis of the rally I began thinking about how the whole thing would piss me off. When I was a young Navy Man (circa 1972) I rode from my school in CA to my next station, a Frigate in Charleston, SC in December. Quite the adventure. In Mississippi I was pulled over for no apparent reason. They then asked to inspect my bags; I had nothing to hide so I let them. They field stripped my bags, looked the bike (Kawasaki Mach 3) over real good. I asked the officer if there was a problem, "He said buoy, we see a motorsickle with CaliforniA plates, we check it out. My advice to you is to get out of this state." I concurred and did. I've always had a warm spot in my heart for Mississippi ever since then;-), the registration/DL checks reminded me of that experience. My kids said it was probably a good thing that I didn't go. I say a little hell needs to be raised here (and I was only a spiritual, slug attendee). Best, Jim At 02:25 PM 9/21/97 +0000, Don Lescoulie wrote: > >Mike wrote: > >>Fontana was more like a police state than anything. > >Never been there but it sounds like the south we know from the >movies. I'll try not to complain about the CHP so much. > >Don Lescoulie >Coarsegold, CA > > James M. Dodmead (Jim) Network Engineering and dodmeadNoSpam@NoSpamnetsww.com Technical Services (NETS), Inc. V 301.854.4945 14825 Burntwoods Road F 410.489.7508 Glenwood, MD 21738 USA Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:40:48 +0000 From: Joseph Luther Subject: BMW: Re: bmw Fontana vs Ruidoso I just spent three days and nearly a thousand miles riding home in cold HEAVY rain and wind, thinking I should have gone to Fontana instead of Ruidoso. Then I caught up on my IBMWR digest reading. The only aggressive police action I witnessed in Ruidoso was the officers stopping highway traffic so that motorcyclists could get out of the parking lot at the rally. The Golden Aspen Rally was a good time. The weather (El Nino again) was the only downside and it got bad only as the rally ended. Joe Luther Nebraska K1100LT - "EXIT" To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Cc: BMW_RANoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com Subject: Trial day in Fontana - Learn from Ghandi? Would any of the fellow prezzes be interested in an all effort to get every possible motorcycle group we could contact for a return to Graham County for the date of our fellow Prezes trials for those who were unfortunate enough to get caught? I would also like to thank the Fellow Prezz from Cincinatti, whose name I did not get who was riding a K12, red I think in Jonesville, Virginia who suggested that I ride Rt. 70. I didn't get as far as Rt. 33, but took a secondary road that eventually brought me back to Rt. 58. Those valley roads are truly made or riding. Higher speed limits and no police road blocks. Thanks again Best Ralph Robertson Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:36:20 -0400 From: "Jeffrey Harth" Subject: BMW: Treatment of my riding friends at Fontana Mr. Mason, I have been reading with increasing dismay the accounts of overzealous police tactics at our national rally in Fontana. You should know that I was not at the rally though I wanted to be. Its probably a good thing I didn't go because I would have been one of those hauled off in handcuffs as I would have opened my mouth and let them know exactly how I felt about what they were doing. Don't assume that I am a criminal because I ride a motorcycle. Funny thing, considering I'm an Eagle Scout, Navy pilot and officer, and all-around law-abiding nice guy. I think it is a shame for you folks who are now going to bear the brunt of you police department's tactics. I have never been in your area but I keep hearing about the great roads and scenery your part of the state has to offer. I go south to Alabama once a year to visit my relatives and have considered detouring to visit your locale. Not any more. I think I will just make it my business not to come anywhere close. If even for solidarity to my friends who were harassed. It is really a shame. Please feel free to pass this along to whomever you think should know of the impact of the overreaction of Graham County's Finest. Jeff Harth Philadelphia Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 15:53:22 PST8 From: jfbrownNoSpam@NoSpamCCGATE.HAC.COM Subject: BMW: Small Town Cops Neil Jones posts: //SNIP// >Nice letter, and I agree that it was one of the best rallies I've ever >attended. But I do have to take you to task for the reaction to the Graham >County Sheriff. Re-read your letter as if you were some bonehead sheriff. > He would be gloating! "Ha! Another one of them motorsickle troublemaker >varmints is staying out of my county. I guess I showed them!" > >The sheriff doesn't care about local jobs or sales volumes of local >businesses. All he is in charge of is law enforcement. The more people he >can keep out of his county, the easier his job will be. > >This jerk is too dumb and narrow minded to see the financial disaster he is >creating. ============= Neil, It doesn't sound as if you have much small town experience. Let me enlighten all you "big city" folks. (Note: I was born and raised in a small Midwestern town that is, demographically, attitudinally, and socially, a close clone of Graham County, NC. I speak from first-hand experience.) Everywhere I know, the office of county sheriff is elective. You gotta get the votes to get the job. In small towns, the "power elite" primarily consists of local businessmen/women. Any elected official who crosses swords with this group will probably be out of office come the next election. To get along, elected officials better go along. You can argue about the unfairness of this in a so-called democracy, but that's the way it is in small towns. And in small towns, *everything* is up close and personal because everybody knows everybody else, and it's everybody's personal lives that are affected. No mercy... And if the small town power elite conclude that a local official's actions are "bad for business", that official will very quickly be toast at the polls. If you think that "The sheriff doesn't care about local jobs or sales volumes of local businesses", you are sadly mistaken. He can be made to care, and in short order... or else. Now, from several posts, it appears that the Graham County Chamber of Commerce is seriously investigating harassment incidents at the RAlly. They are, no doubt about it, gravely concerned. The Fontana area gets a major share of its revenue from tourism, and getting a bad rep for treating law-abiding tourists (with lotsa cash and credit cards) badly sets off alarm bells. THEREFORE, SENDING DETAILED INFO ABOUT HARASSMENT INCIDENTS TO THE LOCAL CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IS EXACTLY THE CORRECT -- AND MOST EFFECTIVE -- RESPONSE. Small town LEOs can blow off the opinions of "furriners", but not powerful, connected locals who are screaming bloody hell because their wallets -- and civic reputations -- are being trashed due to LEO stupidity. The unblinking, harsh glare of bad PR can work wonders. I believe it already has, as far as the RAlly is concerned. So, all you harassees, keep those letters, e-mails, and faxes rolling in to the Graham County, NC, Chamber of Commerce! J.F. Brown 1983 R80ST "NO PIKL" 1997 R11RT "NOIR RAD" IBMWR, AMA, MOA, RA, BOOF, DoD, VI +----------------------------------------------+ | jfbrownNoSpam@NoSpampower.net (J.F. Brown) | Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:30:57 From: George Wright Subject: BMW: NC Police/Fontana I was at Fontana and was appalled at the goings on of the police presence as most everyone was. For the past fifteen years we have vacationed in NC on the Outer Banks and have never had any problems with the NC police being overbearing, or selective, in their enforcement. I feel that NC, as a result of Fontana and Graham County, is taking a bad rap for the shabby treatment we were subjected to by the law enforcement community at the far end (read mountain boys) of their state. I heard many of our guys saying they couldn't find the fastest way out of the State. Unfortunately, the Graham boys have managed to put a pall over the whole state unfairly! Just my personal reaction. George Wright Somewhere in Chester County, PA 1975 R90/6 (Munched but not forgotton) 1981 R100RS (Gray Ghost) BMWMOA, IBMWR, BMWBMW, Blue Flame Beemers, Chesapeake BMW Riders Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:33:43 -0400 From: Angelo Gravagna Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana ( I wasn't there, but....) >I agree with Jim Coburn and feel that planners for our large-scale >rallies >owe it to the attendees to make preliminary contacts with the local >authorities to smooth the way, to let them know the character of the >rally-goers, and to provide references from communities where previous >rallies have been held. A few such contacts might have prevented the >absurd >over-reaction we saw from the Graham County, NC authorities. > > Neil Jones > Dayton, Ohio > '97 R1100RT "Pretty Boy" > > < > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:17:24 -0500 > From: James Colburn > Subject: BMW: Fontana (I Wasn't There Butt...) > > Since we regularly give the MOA powers-that-be a raft of shit when > something goes wrong I think it only fair that we start strapping >those > balsa logs together and complain about the RA Board's lack of >foresight in > determining if the much-touted Fontana site would, in fact, be >motorcycle > friendly. No beer tent? Lots 'o cops? What gives? Who's to blame? > Enquirering minds want to know! > > Jim Colburn>> > Are you guys talking with facts or just talking to make noise and sound intelligent??? I WAS there at Fontana and talked to Ed Jorgensen, RA Prez. He and his team have been working on this rally for over a year. They had talked to the local police, politicos, etc. and all was settled with a beer license in hand months earlier. The day before the rally was to begin, he was called to a meeting by the local authorities along with David Kerr, Manager of Fontana. They were immediately told that the beer license was being cancelled and if they tried to sell any beer they were threatened with arrests, tax audits, etc.. After 3 hours of trying to convince these jerks that they were wrong, Ed gave up. They intended to set up road blocks and stop motorcycles only. When told this, Ed threatened them with law suits if they did not stop ALL vehicles. I believe that what I have said here is correct. I'm sure there are a lot more facts that we don't know and may never. Why don't we wait to hear what RA has to say before running away at the mouth? However, I realize some can't help it since they have diarrhea of the mouth. *********************************************************** Anglo Gravagna Glenwood, MD Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:27:00 -0500 From: "Filak, John F" Subject: BMW: Fontana Local Opinion FWIW, while filling up another tank of gas on Rally Saturday in the town of Robbinsville, the guy at the gas station made a huge point of making me aware that all the law enforcement going on was neither asked for nor condoned by the local residents. In fact, he said that they, as a whole, were rather embarrassed by the county sheriff's office as well as the state police. This man must have apologized to me personally at least 10 times during our 20 minute conversation. He expressed concern that a report of this rally would appear in print somewhere, and said "What will people around the country think of us?" The attendant/manager asked me to spread the word to as many people as possible to let them know that the authorities acted on their own and that next election the locals were hoping to show their displeasure. What does one do in a situation such as this? I actually was touched by his show of empathy. I thanked him for saying what he did and agreed to "spread the word". IMO, not all the locals were on the attack. John Filak Lafayette New Jersey USA Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:50:22 -0400 (EDT) From: EsquireTedNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Fontana Incidents Wanted TO: Allen Garver Robinsville & Graham County (NC) Chamber of Commerce Rob Mason, Director PO Box 1206 Robinsville NC 28771 800 470 3790 (704) 479 3790 FAX (704) 479 9130 Dear Sirs, Friday evening as I and another rider passed through Tellico Plains, TN a police officer saw us approaching and literally ran to his (blue/black?) squad car, started it up and pulled out directly behind us. He followed us quite closely, closer then 4 feet at times, in an attempt I believe to harrass and intimidate us. After a mile of this I saw he had suddenly stopped following us, but then noticed he had merely switched off all of his lights and hung back a bit. We maintained a speed below the proper speed limit and when we stopped at the entrance of the Cherohala Skyway he was no longer behind us. During our ride over the Cherohala I saw three more police cars at the Tennessee/North Carolina border, three more at the NC base of the Cherohala, passed two more on the way to Robbinsville, and saw yet another sitting in front of the video game arcade. Further, I was detained during a blockade set up by I believe the Graham County Sherriff's department (yellow blazed cars) at the very entrance to Fontana Village. I asked the officer why I was being detained and was told it was a safety check. I mentioned that it was my belief that the detention, however brief, was an illegal detention. In a rather mocking tone he suggested that I could discuss this in the back of his squad car if I wanted. Fearing a developing situation where I would ultimately be the loser I merely remarked "never mind" and after receiving my driver's license back I entered the village. On the good side? While my riding partner and I were fueling up to ride the Cherohala on Saturday afternoon at the Shell? station in Robinsville a young man stopped and apologized to my friend and I for the treatment we were receiving at the hands of the local police. Later that evening, after counting yet another 11 police cruisers on the simple route from Robbinsville to the TN/NC border on the Cherohala and back, we began talking with two older women at the Hardees who also expressed dismay at the actions of the local police. They were workers at the local Stanley furniture (?) plant and had remarked that they had grown up in Robbinsville and had never seen the police act as they were this particular weekend. I believe the constant police presence and tactics used by the police were unwarranted, illegal, and served more to intentionally frighten and intimidate then to serve and protect. Unlike others I will return to western North Carolina for it has some of the most beautiful riding on the east coast, and some of the frendliest and considerate people I have met in my tens of thousands of miles of motorcycle travels. The incidents of the last weekend with the local police however will certainly go far in helping me choose alternatives when they do exist. Edward Verrill, J.D. Washington DC Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:07:52 -0600 From: Steve Aikens Subject: Re: BMW: Small Town Cops jfbrownNoSpam@NoSpamCCGATE.HAC.COM wrote: > > Neil Jones posts: > > //SNIP// > >The sheriff doesn't care about local jobs or sales volumes of local > >businesses. >................... > Neil, > > It doesn't sound as if you have much small town experience. Let me enlighten > all you "big city" folks. >.................... > Everywhere I know, the office of county sheriff is elective. You gotta get the > votes to get the job. In small towns, the "power elite" primarily consists of > local businessmen/women. Any elected official who crosses swords with this > group will probably be out of office come the next election. Or earlier. > If you think that "The sheriff doesn't care about local jobs or sales volumes of > local businesses", you are sadly mistaken. He can be made to care, and in short > order... or else. FWIW, Clovis is a small town. We had a Sheriff, Good friend of mine - then and now - lives 6 houses away from me. Well, Ol' Mikey didn't like some of the kids goings on around here and started a crack-down on some of the local bigwigs kids. Tossed 'em in the slammer for violateing curfew (yes, we have one for the kids) and made Mommy and Daddy come haul 'em home for $50. Caught 'em smoking and tossed 'em in the slammer - - another $50, caught 'em with their stereos too loud in the cars, tossed 'em in the slammer - another $50. Next thing you know, Ol' Mikey's sitting in court for having an affair with one of the local female Sheriffs. Elections almost two years away, Mikey's looking for a job and everyone saves 'em $50 fines. Small town justice is a little different than city justice. Anyone that thinks local "sheriff(s) doesn't (don't) care about local jobs or sales volumes" is making a big mistake. Local, small town governing is controlled through the local businesspeople. Here in Clovis, we have what we call "The Shifty Fifty". It's made up of (actually 62) invited "power elite" of our community that actually lobby Congress on behalf of our community to keep our local Air Force Base open, get major highway funding, etc. Any of you that can't see the power being manipulated here is not being realistic. And all being done for the "Good of the community". Small town Sheriff's that abuse/misuse their authority to an extent it touches the businesspeoples' wallet will, like Mikey, be unemployed or worse yet, brought up on some kind of charge that will ruin their reputation, career, and possibly their lives. > Now, from several posts, it appears that the Graham County Chamber of Commerce > is seriously investigating harassment incidents at the RAlly. >..................... > THEREFORE, SENDING DETAILED INFO ABOUT HARASSMENT INCIDENTS TO THE LOCAL CHAMBER > OF COMMERCE IS EXACTLY THE CORRECT -- AND MOST EFFECTIVE -- RESPONSE. > > Small town LEOs can blow off the opinions of "furriners", but not powerful, > connected locals who are screaming bloody hell because their wallets -- and > civic reputations -- are being trashed due to LEO stupidity. The unblinking, > harsh glare of bad PR can work wonders. I believe it already has, as far as the > RAlly is concerned. > > So, all you harassees, keep those letters, e-mails, and faxes rolling in to the > Graham County, NC, Chamber of Commerce! > > J.F. Brown Nope, didn't make the RA. Never intended to. There are two reasons why. One is the conflicting date with the Golden Aspen Rally. And the second and most important is in an excerpt from a reply I wrote to Tom Buttars re: his comment about not writing off North Carolina because of one bad experience. I'm sure Tom has no objections to my sharing a private reply of this nature, so with his indulgence: - -------My Reply To Tom----------------- As to not writing off North Carolonia, too late. I have, for a number of runs to the east, made it a point to do "The Gap Thing" several times. Needless to say, with so many other good riding roads in that area, I've done my share of traveling in NC, over several years. I'm sorry to say, I've **never** been through NC that I didn't get stopped and harrassed. I have been stopped for "Safety equipment inspections", "Insurance inspections", and other bogus shit excuses to stop the bike. The final crowning glory of achievement of the NC State Police was a stop for "erratic riding behaviour" for swerveing out of the path of a pickup truck that blew a stop sign and nearly ended my riding days. That was on my ride home from Morganton and the last time NC will see my smiling face or open wallet. I filed a complaint and never even got the courtesy of a response. FWIW, I have never been cited in NC and have never been stopped for speeding or breaking a law that could be cited. The arrogance of the State Police there is noted time after time. I think it's time for us to sit up and take notice where our presence isn't wanted. Nope. Don't think I need that in my life. Past experience is one reason I did not/will not go to Fontana or anywhere else in NC. Looks like history has repeated itself for some. - ------------End Of Reply------------------ I'm sorry to say, North Carolina's problem is much larger than the local Sheriff. - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:33:54 -0500 From: "Mike Lukachek" Subject: BMW: Letter to Fontana area This will be sent to all NC contacts. Dear Sir: I write this letter to inform you of my displeasure in my recent visit to your area during the BMW Riders Association Rally held at Fontana Village 9/19 - 9/21. In my past visits through the state of North Carolina and Graham County, I have always been welcomed by local residents and businesses. Due to these fine people, it was assumed that this trip would be like any other. In fact, the sign in Robbinsville welcoming our group, brought a smile to my face. Only later did I find that it was not we riders that were welcomed, but only the revenue generated. Including, sales taxes, gasoline taxes and fines imposed for minor infractions written to fellow riders by various policing agencies. If your decision to heavy handedly police the area was based on grade "B" biker movies from the 1960s, maybe it would have been better to speak with some of the clubs officers and organizers beforehand. You would have found that BMW riders in general, are a pretty docile group. Also I could assume that in your opinion, the road blocks and check points, (as on Rt129 near Deals Gap), were designed as a safety measure. Seems to me all that was accomplished was making a possibly hazardous road even more so. You could even state that the constant patroling of Fontana Village with police crusiers driving through crowds of people created a very dangerous situation. In closing, I must say that future vacation plans will probably not include visits to your area. This saddens me because of the beautiful country and wonderful people that are within your borders. Sincerly, Mike Lukachek Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:05:11 +1200 From: "KLEIN, DEAN" Subject: BMW: I'm from NC... Biker scum, I'm appalled by the Fontana Fiasco. Those of you that are tossing stones at RA for "poor planning" ought to shut up and plan a large rally yourself. I was on the selection committee for the Morganton MOA Rally. It took 18 months to find a site, secure the place, and get everything set up. Had it not been for a key player who was local to Morganton, it would have been much, much tougher. Some of you may know, but Parkway Motorcycle Rentals of Asheville, NC was my baby. It's history now due to the insurance weasels, but that's another tale. What I can tell you is that motorcyclist being hassled by police in NC is, sadly, not that unusual. Before deploying for Antarctica, I rode a Vespa 150 miles to Galax, VA to meet a gentleman and buy an R80G/S from him. He, in turn, took the Vespa. On the way back to Asheville, I was stopped in Boone, NC. At the time I was doing 20mph (the posted limit was 25) and looking over Appalachian State University (my old school). While paroozing the scenary, a cruiser did a 180 in the middle of the street and was on my ass. At a red light I pulled aside a pickup with two 90's hipsters in the cab. "The man's gonna hassle me" I said. They looked over and said "uh huh...yup". 200 yards later, I was getting a blue light. I had my license and sale papers out and the helmet off before the cop ever got out of his car. When he got within earshot I simply said "what" and the fellow jumped two feet backwards. Scared 'em I guess. He mumbled that my headlight was too dim. It was broad daylight. I explained to him that G/S electrical systems are weak in the first place and don't come in until about 3,000 RPM. I then asked him what constituted a headlight being too dim and how did he know. He mumbled something, got into his cruiser and I left. The next tag was in Old Fort, NC. I exited town to go on the interstate...oh, I guess 5-10mph hot. The officer was on my like stink. After saying "hi" and showing him the sales paperwork, he started complimenting the bike and telling bike tales. In all honesty, I think he stopped me to just check the thing out. 3 miles later I ran out of gas...but that was just par for the day. To wind this all up: Yes, the police in Western North Carolina do need education that bikers are not outlaws and fiends. There's a lot of education needed....now. - Dean aka BMWloco Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:06:30 -0400 From: Karl Rosenbaum Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana Incidents Wanted At 08:50 PM 09/24/1997 -0400, you wrote: >Friday evening as I and another rider passed through Tellico Plains, TN a >police officer saw us approaching and literally ran to his (blue/black?) >squad car, started it up and pulled out directly behind us. He followed us >quite closely, closer then 4 feet at times, in an attempt I believe to >harrass and intimidate us. After a mile of this I saw he had suddenly >stopped following us, but then noticed he had merely switched off all of his >lights and hung back a bit. We maintained a speed below the proper speed >limit and when we stopped at the entrance of the Cherohala Skyway he was no >longer behind us. During our ride over the Cherohala I saw three more police >cars at the Tennessee/North Carolina border, three more at the NC base of the >Cherohala, passed two more on the way to Robbinsville, and saw yet another >sitting in front of the video game arcade. Wonder who that was?;) You can add my name to the letter if you would like. I am still trying to form some thoughts as to how to word it all and then I will ship it off. Other than the above I had only one more incident. It was when I left; I was stopped right before the Robbinson exit on Rt 29. Not a roadblock, but pulled over. I was going 45 in a 55. He said that I was driving too fast for the conditions (yeah right) and wanted the reg and license. Took awhile for the registration since it was under the seat, which was under the gym bag that I had strapped to the seat. It took him about 15 minutes to get the report back on my license. I also had to explain why I had a CT license with VA tags. Then he wanted to have my military ID. Then he asked why I had the beard; I said that I was on leave. After that he wanted me to produce my leave form. At that point I was getting really pissed! I had it, but what the hell did he need to see it for? If I was AWOL (we actually called unauthorized absence - UA for short) I would have been a hit on the NCIC computer that he ran me through. Well after all this (and I STILL did not have my first cup of java) I was on my way. No ticket, no warning. He handed me my reg and license back and said "that is all". And that was that! Regards, Karl Rosenbaum Woodbridge, Va 88 K100LT "grandpa" BMWRA # 22184 BMWMOA #77012 AMA #567210 and BMWBMW #1650 krosenbaNoSpam@NoSpamerols.com http://www.erols.com/krosenba Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:34:37 -0700 From: "Lloyd F. Rauschkolb" Subject: Re: BMW: Fontana (I Wasn't There Butt...) James Colburn wrote: > > >Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:22:13 > >From: Craig Vechorik > > >....that same weekend, in Mississippi, 480+ Harleys, Hondas, > >BMW's, Triumphs, and 3 Cushmans were in Sturgis, MS (a town of > >200 people) for a sorta rally, and the cops stopped CARS in the > >highway, all day, for the bikers to make left turns safely in the > >oncoming traffic. > > > >And as bad an image as most people have of Mississippi, we did not > >get hassled ONE bit. The South? I dunno about that... > > That's because they knew that the only people able to afford Harleys are > lawyers...... :-) > > Jim Colburn > (aka james.colburnNoSpam@NoSpampressroom.com) > > "You can't eat prestige, so take the money" Jim: You don't have any prestige so you can't eat it. As far as taking the money, it's obvious that you have no scruples. We all know you would take the money. From your postings you are obviously an unscrupulous kind of guy. From my perspective I know it will catch up to you one day. It always does. (((Sorry Frank-I know I should practice what I preach, but this guy just begs for it)))). Lloyd Rauschkolb (Editor of the BMW Riders of Mississippi News and one of those low life Mississipians you like to talk about). rauschkolbNoSpam@NoSpamgcip.net Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:56:43 -0400 (EDT) From: SecababsNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: Re:BMW: Carolina BMW/Honda As mentioned by someone else, the Honda Hoot is held in Asheville, NC. It has been held here for the last five years, grown every year and is welcomed by the City, County and all Public Officials. I am not only impressed by the level of positive publicity and the reception that the Hoot receives by the community, but have never seen the level of police prescense that I witnessed at Fontana even though the Honda Hoot brings over 10,000 motorcyclists to Asheville. I have lived and ridden a motorcycle here for the last two years and have had no encounters with the police, nor have any of my friends. On behalf of those of us that live in Western North Carolina, I apologize for what happened in Graham Country. While I understand that no one wants to be treated that way, I hope that you don't write off the entire western part of the state, or the state as a whole because of how one county treated you. We have friendly people and great riding in the Asheville area. Please consider coming back and giving the friendly part of Western North Carolina a try. Barbara F 650 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:42:41 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: Fontanna Letter to Smoky Mountain Host of North Carolina September 24, 1997 Smoky Mountain Host of North Carolina 4437 Georgia Rd. Franklin NC 28734 Dear Smoky Mountain Host, I am writing you to let you know that in one weekend, the Graham County government actions spoke far more forcefully, than your Vacation Guide and Map. I, and others that travel like me, are not welcome in the area. We will heed the Graham County government actions and not return. Fortunately, for me, there are other states with attractions similar to North Carolina's. I will minimize my travel, and money spent, in North Carolina, and recommend to everyone I know, they do the same. In no case will I travel through, or spend money in Graham County. The BMW Riders Association (BMW RA) held their International Rally September 18 21 1997 at Fontana Village in Graham County. This was the largest BMW RA National Rally ever, with over 2000 people attending. The local sheriff, with support from the North Carolina State police, had two command posts complete with a helicopter set up to monitor the attendees activities. The County Government canceled a beer sale permit at two days before the start of the rally for no stated reason. This is totally unprofessional and an insult to me and the others attending. It does not have to be that way. The BMW Motorcycle Owners of America International Rally at Morganton North Carolina last year. There was no police presence like there was in Graham County. While the Graham County businesses and people were very friendly and happy to see us, their actions are not sufficient to overcome the County government actions. The government can take away my liberty, and the residents cannot restore it. While I am an individual writing, other participants are discussing this, in other venues, with those who did not attend. I am sure how we were treated will be at least mentioned in the Rally reports. This type of action affects where we, and those we know, travel. With an average age of around 50, we travel. We travel where we are appreciated, and not threatened by the local government. While Graham County has delightful roads, people, and attractions, the threat to my liberty is too high, and my travel in North Carolina will be minimized. My presence in the "Police State" of Graham County was not wanted by County Government. I heed the message. I do not travel through or patronize Police States, life is too short, to risk my liberty in such areas. It pains me to see government deeds, destroy businesses actions to improve an area's economy. As a local organization, perhaps you can prevent further damage to the area's reputation in the future. The only way I might change my mind, is if the Graham County Government sends a letter admitting their error, and apologizing to Mr. Ed Jorgensen, BMW RA President and 1997 Rally Chairman. Sincerely, [Signed] Brian Curry RD 2 Blackhorse Rd Chester Springs, PA 19425 Fc: Governor James B. Hunt Jr Clay County Chamber of Commerce Ec: Internet BMW Riders Mr. Ed Jorgensen Ms Juli Tucker Cherokee Visitors Center Andrews County Chamber of Commerce Cherokee Chamber of Commerce Cherokee KOA Jackson County Robinsville Chamber of Commerce +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "We cannot tolerate the proliferation of this paperwork any longer. | | We must kill the people producing it." | | - Vladimir Kabaidze 1936 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:42:49 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: Graham STAR Letter to the Editor September 24, 1997 The Graham Star P.O. Box 69 Robbinsville NC 28771 Dear Graham County residents and business, I feel sorry for you as Graham County taxpayers and business owners. While attending the BMW Riders Association International Rally September 18-21, 1997 at Fontana Village I witnessed the greatest waste of taxpayer, and advertising money I have ever seen. The Graham STAR publishes a very nice area and attraction guide. There were two banners over the road welcoming us to Graham County. However, the County Commissioners and Sheriff's actions, clearly demonstrated that I and any others that travel like me, are not welcome. We will heed their actions and travel, and spend elsewhere. There is no need for us to visit a Police State. In attending twelve BMW International Rallies, and many more local rallies over 20 years, I have never seen any, let alone two, police command posts, nor any police helicopter overflights. Considerable taxpayer funds must have been spent to station police there for several days and fly the helicopter. And for what reason, or effect? None that I could tell. Canceling the beer sales permit two days prior to the opening of the rally is totally unprofessional. If I was a Graham County resident, or particularly a business owner desiring increased economic activity, I would be upset. The Commissioners and Sheriff's actions showed over 2000 people, who I am sure will tell others, how they were regarded. We were not wanted. And those 2000 people, and some they talk to, will not be returning to, nor traveling to Graham County. If you, like I, are upset, I suggest that you contact the County Commissioners and let them know what you think of their actions. Personally, I think the Commissioners owe Mr. Ed Jorgensen, the BMW Riders Association President and Rally Chairman a letter of apology. To the business owners and local people I met thank you very much for your hospitality, while I would like to come back and visit the area, I and others will not as long as we feel that our liberty may be taken by the capricious actions of a local sheriff. Sincerely, Brian Curry RD 2 Blackhorse Rd Chester Springs PA 19425. Ec: Internet BMW Riders Mr. Ed Jorgensen Ms. Juli Tucker Robinsville Chamber of Comme +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "We cannot tolerate the proliferation of this paperwork any longer. | | We must kill the people producing it." | | - Vladimir Kabaidze 1936 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:42:49 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: ASHEVILLE CITIZEN_TIMES Letters to the Editor The ASHEVILLE CITIZEN-TIMES PO Box 2090 ASHEVILLE NC 28802 Dear North Carolina residents and businesses, While attending the BMW Riders Association International Rally September 18-21, 1997 at Fontana Village, Graham County I witnessed the greatest waste of taxpayer, and advertising money I have ever seen. North Carolina state and counties publish several visitor's guides encouraging North Carolina tourism. However, the Graham County Commissioners and Sheriff's actions, clearly demonstrated that I and any others that travel like me, are not welcome. We will heed their actions and travel, and spend elsewhere. There is no need for us to visit a Police State. In attending twelve BMW National Rallies in over 20 years, I have never seen one, let alone two, police command posts, and never experienced a police helicopter overflight. Considerable taxpayer funds must have been spent to station police there for several days and fly the helicopter. And for what reason, or effect? None that I could tell. Further, canceling the beer sales permit two days prior to the opening of the rally is totally unprofessional. If I was a resident, or particularly a business owner desiring increased economic activity in North Carolina, I would be upset. The Commissioners and Sheriff's actions showed over 2000 people, who I am sure will tell others, how they were regarded. We were not wanted. And those 2000 people, and some they talk to, will not be coming back. If you as a resident, like I a non-resident, are upset, I ask you to contact the Graham County Commissioners and let them know what you think of their actions. Personally, I think the Graham County Commissioners owe Mr. Ed Jorgensen, the BMW Riders Association President and Rally Chairman a letter of apology. To the Graham County and North Carolina business owners and local people I met thank you very much for your hospitality, while I would like to come back and visit the area, I and others will not as long as we feel that our liberty may be taken by the capricious actions of a local sheriff. Sincerely, Brian Curry RD 2 Blackhorse Rd Chester Springs PA 19425. Ec: Internet BMW Riders Mr. Ed Jorgensen Ms. Juli Tucker Robinsville Chamber of Commerce +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "We cannot tolerate the proliferation of this paperwork any longer. | | We must kill the people producing it." | | - Vladimir Kabaidze 1936 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:42:55 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: BMW: Fontanna Letter to NC Travel and Tourism September 24, 1997 North Carolina Travel and Tourism Division 301 N. Wilmington St. Raleigh, NC 27601-2625 Dear Travel and Tourism Division, While you are producing beautiful booklets describing the beauty and attractions of North Carolina to draw visitors, the Graham County government is demonstrating that those visitors are not welcome. I have never been subjected to such an odious, repugnant, obnoxious demonstration of police power in my entire life. Fortunately, for me, there are other states with attractions similar to North Carolina's. I will minimize my travel, and money spent, in North Carolina, and recommend to everyone I know, that they do the same. In no case will I travel through, or spend money in Graham County. The BMW Riders Association (BMW RA) held their International Rally September 18 21 1997 at Fontana Village in Graham County. This was the largest BMW RA International Rally ever, with more than 2000 people attending. The local sheriff, with support from the North Carolina State police, had two command posts complete with a helicopter set up to monitor the attendees' activities. The monitoring included "safety checks" which were much more intrusive to motorcyclists, than car or truck drivers. There were slow flights over Fontana Village by the helicopter. There was extensive patrolling of the Fontana Village property with arrests for petty offenses, which might even be considered "trumped up charges." The County Government canceled a beer sale permit at two days before the start of the rally for no stated reason. This is totally unprofessional. I know it does not have to be that way. I was at the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America International Rally at Morganton, North Carolina last year. While the Graham County people and businesses were very friendly and happy to see us, their actions are not sufficient to overcome the County government actions bad taste. The county government can take away my liberty, and the local people cannot restore it. While I am an individual writing, the 2000 other participants are discussing this with those that did not attend. I am sure how we were treated will be at least mentioned in the Rally reports. This type of action affects where we and those we know travel. With an average age around 50, we do travel. We travel where we are appreciated, and not threatened by the local government. Graham County certainly does not meet those criteria, and travel in North Carolina will also be minimized. I felt my presence in the Graham County "Police State" was objected to by the County Government. I do not travel through, or patronize Police States, life is too short, to risk my liberty in such areas. The only way I might change my mind, is if the Graham County Government sends a letter admitting their error, and apologizing to Mr. Ed Jorgensen, BMW RA President and 1997 Rally Chairman. Sincerely, [Signed] Brian Curry RD 2 Blackhorse Rd Chester Springs, PA 19425 Fc: Governor James B. Hunt Jr Clay County Chamber of Commerce Ec: Internet BMW Riders Mr. Ed Jorgensen Ms Juli Tucker Cherokee Visitors Center Andrews County Chamber of Commerce Cherokee Chamber of Commerce Cherokee KOA Jackson County Robinsville Chamber of Commerce +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "We cannot tolerate the proliferation of this paperwork any longer. | | We must kill the people producing it." | | - Vladimir Kabaidze 1936 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:45:15 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: Revised NC Addresses There is an error here. I have deleted what I did not check and show the changes in [] brackets At 08:56 AM 9/24/97 -0700, Roger Wiles wrote: > >Following are addresses and telephone numbers, FAX numbers and E-mail address >of various parties that may be interested in your comments about the reception >we received at the BMW RA in Fontana! rally last weekend. >The Honorable James Hunt, Governor >State of North Carolina >116 W. Jones Street >Raleigh NC 27603-8001 Voice [919] 733 4240 FAX [919-715-3175] Also, the North Carolina Travel and Tourism Division can be reached via e-mail to Paul Cook in that office. His e-mail address is: pcookNoSpam@NoSpamtravel.commerce.state.nc.us Have fun people but keep it polite, and I think keep it to economic issues. Pocket books drive lots of issues in politics. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:44:42 -0400 (EDT) From: daliNoSpam@NoSpamnetrox.net (Dali Meeow) Subject: BMW: NC Info Wanted / This is BS -- Dali Meeow The information is so available that the folks in Robbinsville are tripping over it. If they would just turn on the lights they would see why they're stubbing their toes. If this request is not bull shit then Dali Meeow is a transvestite sports broadcaster who just pleaded insanity for biting a tasteless woman. =20 First, THE REQUEST.=20 > Allen Garver, an official with the Graham County > Chamber of Commerce asked me for any SPECIFIC information about any > incidents of harrassment, and I responded. He and his organization are > actively looking for all the SPECIFIC information they can gather ... Second, THE STORAGE Tell Mr. Garver it's all available right there in Graham County. The sheriff has a blotter or list of people arrested with the name, date, time. If you want police information, such as who was arrested, for what, by whom, etc. ask for it. Actually, you can demand it. Here in Miami I use a demand letter that cites both U.S. and Florida law. In North Carolina, don't cite Florida law. Find an applicable North Carolina law (duh). =20 There is a newspaper in Graham County. I don't know how good it is, but I'll bet at least some of the editors or reporters are members of the Society of Professional Journalists (SPJ). The reporter could have joined when he was a college student, certainly while a working journalist. This month's issue of the Society's official publication just happens to cover "Freedom of Information 1997 Special Report". =20 Third, ASK FOR INFORMATION. Ask for the names, addresses and charges of all arrests from midnight September 16 to midnight September 22, or whatever date you want. Offer to send a secretary to help transcribe the information. Most papers have a police beat reporter who just automatically gets this information every day. If you don't have a police beat reporter, and if there is a special time period or person you want information on, use a standard form. Fourth, CITE THE LAW. Here's a standard form that I have just thrown together. Look at the information below for even better ones. "This is a formal request under the Freedom of Information Act , United States Code Section 552, and is pursuant to North Carolina Open Records Law: G.S. =A7132-1, for legible and complete copies of information which you have in all or any of your files or indices which contains relevant or material information specified above. If there is a valid reason for not releasing the information I have requested, please state the grounds for such refusal in the form of an affidavit." Yes, I took a whole five minutes to find the North Carolina law. No big= deal.=20 =20 Fifth, WHAT ARE ATTORNEYS FOR ? If the police will not release the information, the newspaper's attorney can request the information. Yes, I know this doesn't answer the "What are attorneys for ?" question, but I'll let you have the fun with this one. Sixth, THE WEB SITES. There is a light in Graham County that will illuminate all of the arrest records. They just have to find the switch and turn it on.=20 If you pull up this web site http://spj.org =20 you will find one of the most complete sources of information about the FOIA on the Web. Information from all 50 states, contacts for all departments of the federal government, and how-to help on filing FOIA requests. The latest FOIA news, plus regular Alerts from SPJ's Freedom of Information chair. For North Carolina information, also look at= http://spj.org/foia/stateind.htm or at http://spj.org/foia/states.htm#North Carolina Open Records Law: G.S. =A7132-1 Exempt: Confidential legal communications; government settlement documents; criminal investigations; and intelligence information. Appears that traffic arrests/citations are not exempt form their Open Records Law. If anyone has any questions about this, here are the people to contact: State Sunshine Chair Chip Wilson Charlotte Observer (704) 868-7743 Attorney General of North Carolina (919) 733-3377 AG Web Site North Carolina Press Association Raleigh (919) 787-7443 North Carolina First Amendment Foundation Raleigh (919) 755-0025 North Carolina State Bar Association (919) 828-4620 Graham County can get their own records and contact anyone they want to contact who was charged, whether the accused has an internet connection or not. =20 Even the newspaper folks in Graham County should know that On March 21, 1996, the National Freedom of Information Coalition, a First Amendment Coalition, took its place on the World Wide Web. The site's address is www.reporters.net/nfoic. E-Mail can be sent to nfoicNoSpam@NoSpamreporters.net. If they need help, here it is. This is like the beemer tech page. Once you have a beemer and use the tech page you will remember that the information is there. Once you're a reporter and fo though an FOI request, you can find the way again. Like I said, here's the light in case these folks are so full of bull they can't find the switch.=20 A big enchilada (how to get the information from the bubba Sheriff in North Carolina is found at http://www.reporters.net/nfoic/web/resource/northcar/northcar.htm On the other hand, let's hear it for the media, those folks who do strive to make it government in the sunshine and are working to keep public records open to the public. =20 Stephen & Miami's Dali Meeow, sharing space with The Royal Feline Fur Ball Production Company PS If you want to see the flags of all the states, look at http://www.reporters.net/nfoic/web/index.htm where they are used as links to information about the states. NOTE: Dali Meeow has NOT sent this to the Chamber of Commerce. Will someone else please do it. Hate to call them lazy and shiftless and then eMail them information that they could and should already have. =20 The Chamber of Commerce also may not take kindly to me after I wanted to know when their next elections for Sheriff are taking place. I want to make this local Sheriff's race one of national interest; could make an interesting news story with people from around the country watching the election results in Graham County. Anybody want to contribute ten cents or, heavens, up to $1.00 to the Sheriff's opponent ? Yep, could have fun with this one. Meeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww From Brian Curry Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:48:19 -0400 Subject: BMW: Plagerize, what you were not supposed to do in school, DO IT NOW!!! Readers of this list have seen a number of letters directed to the governmental bodys of Graham County and its surroundings. Maybe you were hanging back, since you are "not a good writer" and didn't want to embarass yourself. Well, PLAGERIZE. Use the machine you have, Copy and Paste. Combine them. Rewrite them a bit. Keep the phrases, you wish you had said. Write them out in longhand. Make them YOURS!! And then send those suckers. Roger and Sue provided the address's, use them. Flood those governmental offices. Even better, if you picked up one of those North Carolina Travel Guides. Send a copy to a few of the business's in the area. Make them know that their governmental officers have driven off tourists. Tourists they paid to advertise to bring in. But never to come back again. That they will be feeling economic pain. It will stir up some reactions. And, I think much more positive than parading through town at 10 MPH. (Yes it does the soul and head good, but it provides them another opputunity to pick us off, and for them to say "I told you so.") Think of being in that region all winter, when the tourists are real few and far between. Wondering if you have enough funds to make it to next summer. Do you have enough funds to pay the taxes? And what did those Commisioners spend the tax money on? IMO, more fun than a legal battle. Not in sterile courtroom. Right out there in the streets where people are struggling to survive. Remember. Money doesn't talk, IT SCREAMS!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "We cannot tolerate the proliferation of this paperwork any longer. | | We must kill the people producing it." | | - Vladimir Kabaidze 1936 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:35:31 -0400 From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: When are Graham County Elections ? -- Dali Meeow At 11:27 AM 9/25/97 -0400, Dali Meeow wrote: > > September 25, 1997 >Mr. Rob Mason, Director >Robinsville NC Chamber of Commerce >PO Box 1206 >Robinsville NC 28771 > >Sir: > >When is Graham County holding its next general election for commissioners >and sheriff ? >From I "love" Graham County produced by the Graham Star, the Commissioners serve 4 year terms, Raymond Williams, and Dale Wiggins share the responsibilities of county manager, with Williams holding the title. The current board members begin the fourth year of their terms December 1997. So, it looks like 1998 is the year. They meet the first and third Monday of each month at 1 PM in the county manager's office. The county manager's office number is: 704-479-7961 The manager's apparent home numbers are: Raymond Williams 704-479-3963 Lynn Cody 704-479-6320 Dale Wiggins 704-479-2195 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:02:27 -0400 From: "Terence R. Evans, M.D." Subject: BMW: Need pic I.D. Please.. Fontana group shot enlargement: http://www.ibmwr.org/pastevnt/reports/photos/97RAGroupPic.gif Best I can come up with is: Back Row from Lt > Rt: Jim Shaw, Steve Andersen?, Viper, Red cap?, Roozbeh , Curve?, Larry Fears, ?, ?, Traversa, Tom Keen. 2nd Row: John Baxter, Brian Curry, Red RA shirt, EsqTed whom I never saw again after Thurs afternoon!, Toodles, Somebody who went to Branson, ?who's she?, ?Bob Smith? Front Row: Greg Hutchinsen, floppy hat?, who wouldn't know Voni , Joe Senner, Tee Shirt Toadie. So, how can I get this expensive albeit, out- dated Sony 15 incher to give me sharper web pics? :-/ Was this the Sattidy NoSpam@NoSpam 5pmish shooting that ahem, *I* planned? :-))) Blame Eilenberger on my no-show here and his welcome and cold domestic! beer. And NON Boiled Yankee-type peanuts. OR Blame Hawk Horthorne and Rock Shannon for the Sam Adams!!! and Royal Crown T-Mia Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:50:13 -0400 From: "Terence R. Evans, M.D." Subject: BMW: Re: No BMW Arrested First of all, Ted Hall, I understand that you were the last minute Chief of Security at Fontana? 1) I'm sure you did everything possible that you could have after it became apparent that the police were attempting to ruin the rally. IMO, you nor no one THERE as a rep of The RA could have don't nothing to foresee, ward off or stiffle the acts of the officials as they were hellbent in their attitudes. Just the single act of the police? pulling the Beeer Permit, the day before the rally where it was heard they'd decided to do this up to three months prior is egregious enough. It was painfully obvious TO THOSE THAT ATTENDED that this was a well planned operation - a covert one which no one had any idea what was to come until we were in the misdts of it. 2) I have all confidence that rally organizers did above and beyond, up to a year plus prior to make sure all the bases were covered especially with the police and public officials. I am an RA member and have read about the planning activities for this event in the OTL magazine for over a year now. Sorry, I get really pissed with the ignorant innuendos that the RA officials went into this area blindly or with _any_ doubt. The police and public officials had one thing in mind: Have them come, collect their tourist dollars AND as a Double Dip, collect their revenues as well. Period. Oh, the other thing was make sure they lose money buy pulling the beer permit - makes for more riders out on the roads to buy beer, thus have (I mean fabricate) MORE traffic violations. An excellent SETUP if you ask me. These guys weren't stupid. At 08:40 AM 9/26/97 -0400, "Ted Hall" wrote: >Do we actually have any victims here? >I HEARD that: >" at least six were arrested for pissing behind a tree in the >campgrounds-indescent exposure One of my friends for years in this BMW Rally scene who cabined directly across the street from me at the Peppertree entrance where on Friday night several police cruisers were holding what could be best described as a 'Sting Operation' with their blue and red lights flashing and basically DARING you to leave the Village onto RT 28. As my wife and I were heading back, many of those from the two cabins there were yelling for riders to TURN AROUND! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! DROP (and leave) YOUR BIKE! This was said to us as we were considering leaving the area to get something to eat - this was about 10:30pm - Friday night - which we went hungry becuase WE didn't feel like being possibly detained for ANY reason. So, we joined in the activities of warning other bikers while sipping our beers (feasting on raw Broccoli and granola bars ;-) on either the porches/decks or off the road* inside the bounderies of the cabins. Ed Jorgenson and Fred Tucker (via their police scanners) warned us that our effective warnings to other bikers leaving were really pissing off the police at the entrance . As we effectively blew the Sting Operation. We were told the next morning that via the scanners that our cabins would be "spotlight searched" the next night (Saturday) as a reprisal. We were also told by Ed and Fred that we'd better be as quiet as a Chuch Social Tea as the word was we were going to be singled out and made an example of. Since TLE and I had better things to do with $200 we stayed as far away from OUR OWN cabin as late as possible that night. During this Friday night event, the friend that I got side tracked mentioning above - decided, perhaps stupidly so, to do a Recon of the police by merely walking through the bush (really forrest) to check out what they were doing with those several cars with lights ablaze at the entrance, oh so quietly. He was spotted, told to FREEZE and was accosted. The police pointed to some wet leaves, *told him* that he urinated on them and was arrested for: indecent exposure, public urination, blah blah. $200 to get him out and his date is either 10/22 or 10/24. >one guy crossed the road with a beer and was arrested for open >container(dry county) This was another one of my friends. I don't know the details exactly other than: open container (Had no idea that the capground/resort was considered public roads - a warning would have sufficed) - maybe public drunkenness, disorderly conduct and whatever else they FELT like trumping up at the time. Again, $200 to get him out and they both have the same date to appear for trial. Both have been IMBWR Presidents at one time or another by virtue of their subscribing to the list - couldn't take the volume and/or off topic banter and are not currently subscribed. The latter one has and IBMWR decal on his Darr Bags of his R100CS as well as an IBMWR plate frame ;-) I'm so glad someone gave me the Head's Up as I awoke Friday morning and was about to travese the, to me, Campsite - helmetless. I would probably have gotten lethal injection if they'd have tried to arrest me for that! >one guy walking down the road , in the road, arrested for impeding traffic >flow Oh, yeah, that was another charge the latter friend got, to my understanding. Pure BS! >one guy sucked into passing over a double yellow with slow moving car in >front of him, actually being waved on by driver( A COP) and stung. Gil >Wozniak sprung him from the pokey, a cool $1000 bail" Geez! T'waz better to publicly walk with an open beer can or "pee" in the forrest!!! >Were their any weapons violations No doubt - but hopefully not. I'm waiting to hear about someone was busted for their unregistered Leatherman(tm). >Were their any drug violations It was a rally - 50's, 60's, 70's generationers attended. Damn, I hope no one was caught doing THAT! >Were their any speeding or other road violations >Were their any victims of physical abuse >Hello VICTIMS , are you out there???????????????? Ted, tell me your intentions with this info? Better yet, I'll Bcc the above two persons this and ask that they contacy you. >Ted > >hfrmystrNoSpam@NoSpamvermontel.com >AMA MOA RA (VT,STATE DIRECTOR) AIRHEAD >BMW MOV BMW GS BMW SE ME OSBMW YANKEE BEEMER >75 90/6 TABS-TRANS ATLANTIC BIKESHARE >83 R80 ST TOURSHARE MEMBER TERRY-Miami Bcc/PS - Hey, Billy Jack! Please forward this to Road Dog, I lost his e-mail address. How was Keith Code? ;-) From George Wright Subject: Pic-ID wanted I guess I can help with at leat two unidentifiables... 1st Row - Floppy Hat is George Wright (yours truly!) 2nd Row - Red RA shirt is Andrew Salisbury. Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:45:57 -0500 From: Keith Carr Subject: RE: BMW: Re: Fontana and the law Frank, You probably don't remember me, but I was one of a group of guys that = were looking at your bike at the Vicksburg rally this year. Anyway, not to be picky but an officer does not have to have probable = cause to make a traffic stop. Only "reasonable suspicion" needs to be = established. THis is a lower lever of proof than probable cause. The other way that a stop can legally be made is through an impartial = checkpoint. In order to run a checkpoint correctly, though, there must = be some sort of criteria for what vehicles get stopped. THis could be = something like "every third vehicle", but not "every motorcycle" or even = "every vehicle with out-of-state-plates". Once you are legally stopped, officers can check the area around your = bike, but no closed areas, with a dog. If the dog alerts on an od