From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 9 01:32:49 1997 From: Matthew Thornbury To: "'Hosmann95NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com'" Cc: "'IBMWR list'" Subject: BMW: RE: Aftermarket Pipes - R1100R? Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:09:02 -0400 X-Info: Via World Wide Development Reply-To: Matthew Thornbury Steve writes: I've been thinking about replacing the stock exhaust on my '96 R1100R. = I've heard mention here about Staintune and BMP. I've seen both of these = sytems at my local dealer. I've also heard mention, briefly, of some bikes = with D & D pipes, but have never seen one installed on an R (a friend does have a = D & D on a CBR900RR, though). Can anyone share their experiences, good or bad, with any of these = systems? Any difficulties with mounting them? Sound (noise?) levels?=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------- I've had a Staintune on my '94 R11RS for 3 years. Mine is the "touring" = baffle, which is rather quiet. About the same sound level as the = Airhead bikes. The "sport" is louder, but not objectionably so. If you = want stealth, go for the touring. If you want a better sound, go the = sport route. Staintune positives: Light weight, good looks, no more inverted tip on = the canister that gets all nasty with carbon deposits, eliminates sewing = machine sound that the stock exhaust exudes, will probably outlast the = bike, no loss of midrange power, may be a slight increase on top end (I = can't say for the "sport" baffle), sounds pretty good. Staintune negatives: Can sound "tinny" at times- metallic pinging sorta = thing, gets a mottled spottiness to it after several thousand miles- = requiring buffing with a wheel and compound or polish, high cost, = mounting is a cinch. =20 The "headers" are not included, AFAIK. Mine doesn't have 'em. The D&D is louder, but sounds good to me. Depends on your neighborhood = and all that. Note that the D&D will require repacking every so often, = while the Staintune's don't. =20 IMO, D&D positives: Even lighter weight, better looks (IMHO), more = power on top end, much cheaper, nice sound. D&D negatives: repacking required, possible "burning" of carbon (if = carbon canister selected), loss of midrange (where most of us ride most = of the time) to get more on top end. As usual, YMMV. Matt Ashland, KY =20 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 22:51:47 1997 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:17:27 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Michael Lehman Subject: BMW: Aftermarket Pipes; & CA! Reply-To: Michael Lehman You may want to take this with a grain of salt.... My dealer/mechanic claims that if you live in California and opt to replace your catalytic converter and pipes; keep the parts. They expect California to pass emissions standards for motorcycles that would require the motorcycle to be returned to "stock" to be legal. Me. I'll stay stock... Mike --------------------------------------------------------------- Michael F. Lehman boxer_mikeNoSpam@NoSpambigfoot.com WB2KFU BMW '95 R1100R - Topogigio, the little gray mouse. AMA 468751 MOA 74729 http://www.primenet.com/~mlehman/index.html ____ / \ |- ---| \ -- / ___)--(___ XXXXX\/XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXX XX XX XXXXXX XXXXM==____== XX XXXXXX ** M HHHHHH *()* HH||HH / ** \ HH||HH []==<<>>==[] HH||HH \#II#/ HH||HH #II# HH||HH +iiii#/\#iiii+ HH||HH +i\\i#\/#i//i+ HH||HH U #OO# U VV||VV uOOu _VV||VV__ OO /__/H H\__\ \/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jun 11 12:21:51 1997 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 11:12:36 EDT From: Tom Coradeschi To: "John D. Bowne" , The Internet BMW Riders Subject: Re: BMW: Thoughts on a Staintune Sport on a K100RS Organization: Skylands BMW Riders Reply-To: Tom Coradeschi John Bowne: >I've got a chance to buy a Sport (?) Staintune for my '89 K100 RS for about >$475. Does anyone have a good feel for the relative merits of this pipe? >And the value? The price is right. However, I think the Sport pipe is borderline obnoxious as far as sound. Get the Touring. Should be the same price. Check CAL BMW's site for more info... tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> PS: Doncha wish you'd never sold me your old muffler? From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 24 20:17:54 1997 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:58:12 -0500 (CDT) To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: dbyker Subject: BMW: RE: Staintune Question - Touring vs Sport Reply-To: dbyker John, This is only my opinion, and I am not a mechanic or tuner by any means. I had a sport Staintune on my K75S for about 5 miles. It was so loud that I rode straight back to the dealer and, to their credit, they replaced it with a touring Staintune (at the time, I didn't know Staintunes came in two flavors). The sport Staintune was not only unacceptably loud (to me), but I felt it robbed midrange power, though I also felt it added top end power. As I said, all these impressions were based on one five mile ride. Also, I once rode 1,100 miles behind another rider who had a sport Staintune on his K75S, and I had to stay a ways back from him in order to avoid the noise, and reverberations in my fairing, from his muffler. I now have a touring Staintune, as well as a K&N air filter and Luftmeister high-pressure fuel regulator (more air, more gas, less restrictive exhaust), and I feel this combination makes a noticable, maybe 2-3hp, difference in my mid-range, where I want it. There's other ways to get a few more hp out of your bike as well, without destroying your hearing in the process. I recommend avoiding the sport Staintune unless you yearn for noise and top-end. Once again, these are just my opinions. YMMV. Dave Meyer 94 K75RT Arlington VA _____ >As much as I hate to $ay it -- I will be due for a >new exhaust system for my 87 KRS soon. >Just rec'd my BOB'S catalog yesterday, and >was looking at the $taintune exhaust systems >they have. QUESTION: What exactly is the >difference (aside from, I assume, a louder >sound) between their "touring" and "sport" >exhaust systems? Is there a PERFORMANCE >difference? >Thanks to all. >john From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jul 1 03:59:36 1997 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:41:58 -0700 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: "Faulkner Macdonald (FA)" Subject: BMW: Laser Exhaust Reply-To: "Faulkner Macdonald (FA)" Hi I have a '95 R1100R, which i have just placed a Laser Exhaust on. This exhaust is a slip-on and is all stainless steel. Even thought I live in Australia (the home of Staintune) I choose the Laser, made in Holland because it was alot cheaper. In Australia the Staintune is $1300.00AU and the laser was $720.00AU, this was enough for me to take a closer look at it. The Laser is just as deep is tone, but alittle louder. It also does not have that ugly lump just in front of the back wheel, it looks more like a normal sports exhaust, you can also get a "carbon fibre" look. So far I have been impressed with both the quality and sound. I have written this note, as there a not many companies that make exhausts for BMW bikes. Hope this helps FA "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million type-writers will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky, California University professor From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Aug 7 21:03:07 1997 Date: 7 Aug 1997 09:18:14 U From: "Diaz Jon" Subject: BMW: Staintunes....you get what you pay for To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: "Diaz Jon" X-No-Archive: yes VMan wrote: >From what my Ducati friends tell me, these Ferracci pipes are the hot >set up, and I was wondering why they cost so much less than the R1100 >Staintune? Why are the Staintune pipes for other bikes (K75) so >much cheaper? I know it's a great product, but I can't help but feel >gouged by the price. Any comments from the prezzes? I put a set of Staintune slip-ons on my 750ss, and have a good idea why they cost more. Superior fit and finish, perfect welds, a mechanical baffle that never needs re-packing, no rivets, screws, or other shit fasteners to vibrate and rattle out, and a company that stands behind their stuff if there is a problem. Also, the R1100 pipe has a second muffler, a port for an oxygen sensor, and brackets welded on for the centerstand _and_ left footpeg. Weldments like that are difficult, complex, and expensive. If you want to talk about gouging from R1100 aftermarket suppliers, ask Ohlins why they charge $7-900 for their Type 1 shock absorbers. Jon Diaz From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Aug 11 03:35:37 1997 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:08:49 -0800 To: JosephVmanNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com (by way of Brian Curry ) From: kariNoSpam@NoSpamcalbmwtriumph.com (Kari Prager) Subject: Re: Kari!!!BMW: Staintune exhaust Cc: dahammrrNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Reply-To: kariNoSpam@NoSpamcalbmwtriumph.com (Kari Prager) X-No-Archive: yes >At a european bike club meeting last night, one of my friends who rides an >R100RS had his Ducati 750SS out for the evening, and just put on a pair of >Ferracci carbon fiber cannisters, which looked and sounded absolutely >gorgeous. I had no idea how much these things cost, so I asked him, and was >shocked when he told me they were around $650 a pair. Like many R1100GS >riders, I've explored the possibility of the Staintune low exhaust pipe on my >scooter, both to enhance the sound and to give me the full size bag >capability. Like many GS riders I became physically ill at the price quoted >on the Staintune, roughly 10% of the cost of a new R1100GS, and totally >unable to justify it (somehow even telling myself I can sell the stock >exhaust for $250 just doesn't do it!) From what my Ducati friends tell me, >these Ferracci pipes are the hot set up, and I was wondering why they cost so >much less than the R1100 Staintune? Why are the Staintune pipes for other >bikes (K75) so much cheaper? I know it's a great product, but I can't help >but feel gouged by the price. I realize this is an apples and oranges >comparison, but one can't help but wonder why a pair of these obviously >well-made, exotic carbon fiber exhaust pipes cost half as much as a single >Staintune. Any comments from the prezzes? > >Joe Maniaci >96 R1100GSA >96 Dinan ///M3 Dear Joe, I am a little late in replying, I didn;t see your post until it was forwarded to me by a friend. Here's my comment on your questions, speaking from the distributor's viewpoint, (CBT Imports), and as a dealer who has been stocking Staintune since 1983: 1. I know that K75 pipes were relatively inexpensive initially, but the price did not reflect the true production costs. We thought they would be much less expensive to build than the four cylinder systems. When Staintune realized what the actual production costs turned out to be, they raised the K 75 prices to be more in line with the other products. 2. Carbon Fiber used to be exotic but it isn;t anymore. You can subcontract cylindrical sections of cf very cheaply and stick end-caps and pipes on... it is way cheaper to produce than the model-specific stainless steel systems. Carbon fiber systems are not well suited to support a permanent internal baffle system (at least none that I know of) and are nearly all of the acoustic resonance design, so either need repacking regularly or are very loud. Stainless cans can support mechanical reversion flow baffling (similar in principle to stock system but less restrictive, and much more expensive to manufacture than a "glass-pack".) I believe Ferraci gets their c/f systems from Termignoni, who make OEM systems for Ducati, so there are enormous economies of scale and "free" development for header shape, mounting, etc. available to them that is not available to Staintune. Also, we have to ship our products more than twice as far. 3. Carbon Fiber is not a particularly good material, in my opinion, for a long-term high-mile heavy-duty exhaust system. Vibration causes the rivets or fasteners to abrade the material, as do the clamps. However c/f has a good image value and racing heritage, is light, requires little special tooling to assemble, and sounds very nice, so carbon systems are relatively easy to sell. I don't know what the Termignoni warranty is, but Staintune Carbons are guaranteed for only one year, as opposed to Staintune Stainless systems, which are warranted for three years, and we have lots of stainless systems that are still in use after five or ten years and looking good. For these reasons we generally do not recommend our own cf systems for bikes that will accumulate high miles and heavy use. 4. Carbon Fiber is not easy to repair once torn, abraded or damaged; usually the can must be replaced. - Stainless is repairable by welding unless you squash the can, and the systems can be polished back to new appearance. 5. GS pricing: The GS system essentially is two mufflers (the expansion chamber under the transmission has internal construction similar to a regular muffler) in line. The heavy duty that GS owners impose on their machines means that there must be no compromises in materials, bracket construction, etc., and not too much noise. There is a lot of hand labor in this system and thus the production costs are high and thus the GS system is priced similarly to a pair of mufflers. 6. I can;t help how you feel about the price, but we are sensitive to the issue and I will tell you that the mark-up added by us and by the dealer to the distributor price is below the industry norm for this kind of product. We price Staintune pipes based on excellent performance and very long service life, good aftersale support and and dealer confidence in the pipes, and a careful, model-specific development approach based on moderate sound and maximum midrange, as contrasted to high peak horsepower and loud sound, the usual pattern for aftermarket pipes. So far the approach has been successful, and we are seeing rapid growth in those markets (Honda VFR, VTR, etc.) which are similar in demographics to the BMW market. That's my view, let me know what you think, k Regards, Kari [Kari Prager, California BMW Triumph, 2490 Old Middlefield Way, Mountain View, CA 94043 650.966.1183/966 8340 FAX, E-mail to , use for orders or shop business. Our website is at www.calbmwtriumph.com] *** "Was BMW tut, ist wohlgetan..." *** From Steve Aikens Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:20:28 -0600 Subject: Re: BMW: Staintune exhaust and luggage MJLumNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com wrote: > > I just installed the Staintune sport exhaust system on my R1100RSL (96). I > put on the luggage and it seems to come rather close to pipe. I don't recall > the stock system being like this. The Staintune seems to be a little high > and closer to the rear wheel. Has any one else experienced this? Also, I was > wondering if the bag will melt or otherwise be damaged due to heat from the > pipe? Michael, This is a problem if the Staintune isn't rotated properly, out of the way from the bag. Unlike a stock exhaust, aftermarket exhausts for the R1100RS can be improperly mounted. When you mount the Staintune, it should be mounted loosely and rotated clockwise (from the rear) until the exhaust tube in the center appears to point almost straight to the rear, then tightened down. If you have it mounted correctly, there should be about an inch or more between the bag and the muffler. If it's not mounted correctly, you can burn a hole in your bag real fast - - and I'm not telling you how I found out........shit! - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. From tevansmdNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:48:28 -0400 Subject: BMW: Re: Muffler shield driving me nuts On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Karl Rosenbaum writes: > I have 88 K100LT with the wonderful muffler shield. This >thing makes all >kinds of noise in the 4500 - 6500 RPM range. I installed a new shield >with >all new hardware prior to Fontanna. I was finding that I would get A >LOT >of noise from the muffler vibrating. I just talked to the dealer >wrench >and he suggested that I try high temperature o rings to try and >insulate >the shield. BTW I do have the newer muffler that has the additional >bolt >in the lower middle. Has anyone experienced similar problems and if >so >what did they do to rectify it? Karl, Here's my muffler story on my 91 K100LT - extract where you feel is applicable to you: Back when I had my bike about a year and 20K miles I started hearing sounds like there was a plane overhead. I ignored the sounds for quite some time after I realized that a missing heat shield bolt was the culprit. Eventually the noise got worse when it became apparent that the muffler's baffle had come disconnected. That's when I sought a remedy. Fortunately I was still in Warranty. So, I get a new muffler, heat shield (it too, got a stress fracture from the vibration) and new mounting hardware. Installation was done by probably the most knowledgeable, anally retentive (in a good way :-) BMW dealer there is. The owner did the work and used probably the most expensive torque wrench ever made to put the heat shield on - all I recall is that the torque was very low with those allen bolts (<10 ft pounds?) Witin 50 miles of leaving the dealership I started hearing that airplane overhead again. However, the shop closed by that time and I pressed home. Upon getting to my garage and while the bike was still hot, I removed all the heat shield bolts. I Anti-seized them and I *snugged* them down with the allen ratchet - with the throttle positioned and locked at the offending RPM range, I further tightened the bolts down with the wrench until the noise was GONE! NOW, we're 4 years and 85,000 miles later and the muffler and heat shield is still solid, quiet or no vibration. In fact, doing the same technique with my bar grip-ends (end weights?), IOW, tightening them until the sound is abated - I have the smoothest, quietest K100 on the road :-) YMMV. Good luck! TERRY-Miami ... looking to have 110,000mi for the contest's end - just need 3k more... From Tom Coradeschi Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 15:55:41 EDT Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Muffler shield driving me nuts Karl Rosenbaum: >I have 88 K100LT with the wonderful muffler shield. This thing makes all >kinds of noise in the 4500 - 6500 RPM range. I installed a new shield with >all new hardware prior to Fontanna. I was finding that I would get A LOT >of noise from the muffler vibrating. I just talked to the dealer wrench >and he suggested that I try high temperature o rings to try and insulate >the shield. BTW I do have the newer muffler that has the additional bolt >in the lower middle. Has anyone experienced similar problems and if so >what did they do to rectify it? My $0.02. Take the heat shield off. Throw it in a corner of the garage. Forget about it. I've tried all "the tricks." I've upgraded my muffler on my '85 KRS to the new mounting scheme (uses metal inserts in the muffler), after the old metal clips broke. I've got the shield with the extra bolt (as you describe). Verdict: the bolts vibrate out (repleatedly). The inserts come loose. The muffler now has several holes in it and will be going in the dumper just as soon as I can scratch together ~$700 for a Staintune. I'm sicka the damn thing. tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:36:57 -0500 From: Cal Swallow Subject: Re: BMW: Saddlebag heat shielding At 10:31 A 9/23/97 U, you wrote: > > >Does anyone know the p/n for the heat shield that is glued on the underside >of the LH saddlebag on an R1100RS? Or can anyone suggest alternative >materials? > >Jon Diaz > John, Here is a copy of a post I sent back in July. Mebbe it'll help. Let me know. - -------begin original post----- I had the same problem on a '79 Suzuki with Krauser bags. I made a shield by sandwiching a thin layer of cork gasket stock between two sheets of thin aluminum stock. (both available in rolls at auto parts stores) I used silicone to laminate the cork and aluminum. For extra insurance I mounted it with a 1/4" air gap between the shield and the bag bottom. I used small machine screws and nuts. Screws went in from the interior of the bag. Two nuts served as spacers, then through the shield. Secured with nylock nuts. The screw holes in the bags got the silicone treatment. No leaks and no more hot bag. It worked for me and ended up looking "factory". The nylock nuts acted as feet to on which to rest the bag. Good luck. - -------end of original post------ I hope this helps. {8-) "You know you are brave if you eat organically grown fruit in the dark". CS '97 Cal Swallow NOTICE: Due to inflation, my $.02 worth is now Quincy, IL now going for $.03. Date: 7 Oct 1997 09:08:25 U From: "Diaz Jon" Subject: BMW: K11 exhaust pipe compensation Mark Gensman wrote: >It's on and it works. My 60 to 100 3rd gear times are quicker. This is the LT that goes 152mph, right? >I trust the oxy sensor and the computer to adjust any fuel/air mixture >the new pipe needs. I figure if the bike is smart enough to know when >I had to put regular unleaded fuel in it and drive over a 10,000 foot >mountain pass and it never missed a beat, it can sure as hell figure >out I got an exhaust system with less restriction. Mark....the bike isn't smart enough to figure out octane, as there is no knock sensor. You got lucky filling up with regular at altitude, because less air was packed into the cylinder per stroke due to decreased air density. You could have filled up with 85 octane and not had a problem. The fuel injection will compensate for mixture changes, but the lowering the exhaust restriction isn't doing that. Mixture changes when more air is added to the burn, via an air leak or increased air mass coming into the airbox. The original design probably has the intake and exhaust openings set to the very minimum limits that allow the engineer to meet the hp/torque goals for the engine, because making those openings larger affect the overall noise package, which tends to be the REAL challenge of motorcycle engineering these days I imagine. In other words....yes, you opened up the exhaust, but you didn't open up the intake. The bike isn't taking in anymore air, so no additional fuel is being added, so no additional hp is being produced. Buy a Staintune for their gorgeous looks, their superior build quality, and their more pleasing exhaust tone, but don't let the additional noise fool you into thinking you are going faster. Jon Diaz Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:51:00 -0500 From: "Filak, John F" Subject: BMW: K-tones, a Muffler Review "NO DYNO" ALERT - HIT DELETE KEY NOW ! I just installed a new Motad muffler on my '85 KRS yesterday. First off, I have no dyno and will not seek to have this tested. (I don't need no stinkin' charts) So, everybody except Mark Gensman hit "delete" now. OK. Mark, and any of you "delete key challenged" Prezzers still reading, I offer this seat-o-pants and aesthetic muffler review. Nice finish, nice design, nice fit. This appears to be a mechanical baffle type muffler, with no removable baffle or any packing. It is only slightly louder than stock or as quiet. It meets British standards for noise. IMO, this muffler could/should have been offered as OE equipment by BMW. But it wasn't. Nice low tone at idle, not "jappy" at all at any RPM. Took it out for a short ride afterwards and the bike appears to have all of its usual grunt and maybe a little more at midrange. So I can't see any functional downside, but I won't claim membership in the 150 MPH club just yet. ;-) Weather permitting, I will know more in a few days. The seller (M&P Motorcycle Accessories in the U.K.) told me that the polished stainless was no longer available. So I got the black chromed stainless model. This unit eliminates the header pipe clamps that the stock unit uses. It also has an integrated hanger bracket while the stock unit uses a separate, bolt-on bracket. I read this as less parts and easier assembly, right out of a DFMA textbook. (Actually, the Brits wrote the book on DFMA as I recall) 10 points for robustness. Finish is very nice. (Did I say that already?) This unit is sleek and easy to care for. Without the unsightly pipe clamps the unit really cleans up the lower lines of the bike. Weight - I didn't weigh it but it felt about 2 pounds lighter than OE, maybe 3. 10 points for vibration reducing weight reduction. Installation - Had to loosen the header bolts at the head to effect proper fitment. Align header pipes into the welded 4-pipe muffler joint/manifold and tap into place with a rubber mallet until the mounting holes line up with the bolt holes on the footpeg bracket. Tighten the muffler in place, then retighten the header bolts. The muffler came with its own sidestand stop rubber that I had to install. List price was about US$260. I'm waiting for my next VISA statement to see how much the shipping charges were. Exact costs were based on the exchange rates in effect at the time the purchase was posted to VISA. I expect it should still come in less than Capitol's price of $320 + shipping. BTW, M&P is one of those really responsive vendors and I will go ahead and recommend them to anyone. A good outfit with which to do business. Boy, howdy, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? John Filak ~ Lafayette New Jersey USA ... my DEM .03537 (at today's rates) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:18:08 EST From: GMartin928 Subject: BMW: Re:BMW Exhaust Paint Another excellent source for ceramic coatings is: Britech N.E. 194 Elm St Southbridge, MA 508-764-8624 , -6304 fax They are very m/c savvy, 'cause they race 'em in AHRMA. Glenn Martin NJ Shore BMW Riders Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:55:05 -0800 (PST) From: Dana Priesing Subject: Re: BMW: Motronic fuel injection on early Ks At 06:31 PM 1/5/98 -0500, Karl Rosenbaum wrote: > >I have a '88 K. That's exactly what I did. After having my wife's left >foot fall asleep 3 times, I finally did something. I managed to find a >used motad muffler (made in Britain) and put that puppy on. What a >difference! I have no vibration (other than normal for a K) and the >muffler is just about the same "volume" level for the ears. I am really >glad that I came accross this muffler! I tried the Motad pipe on my KLT too. Thought it really helped smooth things out. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS