From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue May 20 00:35:28 1997 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:02:58 +0900 Subject: BMW: Brake pad hints X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,4,6,8-9,12-17 From: douholmesNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Douglas W Holmes) Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: douholmesNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Douglas W Holmes) X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ I have a 16V K100RS and its getting to be time for new brake pads. I'm currently using Ferodo pads. These are very good pads. Good initial bite, and very good in the wet. About the only thing I dislike is that they are very dusty . Much cleaning. The set I had before were from Braking. These were a semi-metallic with carbon-fiber. Good, but terrible in the wet. My favorite set has been the stock pads, but at around $70.00 per pair (caliper) they are too expensive. Anyone have experiences with other brands for the 4 piston Brembo's, I'd really like your input. CLASS at Elkhart is coming soon. Any other Prezzes out there going to be at Elkhart Lake? Thanks- Doug Holmes Minneapolis, Mn K100RS '91 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue May 20 02:07:36 1997 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:50:32 +0900 To: BMW-LIST From: Satoru Manita Subject: Re: BMW: Brake pad hints In-Reply-To: <19970519.230259.3334.0.douholmesNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com> References: <19970519.230259.3334.0.douholmesNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: Satoru Manita X-Bmw-List: Majordomo 1.94.3 X-Web-Page: http://www.ibmwr.org/ Doug, I too think that the stock pads is not bad but too expensive... If you're satisfied with Ferodo pads, I recommend "Premier" pads. The Kevlar / Carbon-Kevlar formulated pads is very good in dry and not bad in wet. Feels JUST like Ferodo but lasts longer than stock and Ferodo one. Relatively inexpensive (even in Japan!): about$40/caliper I have no idea about its "dustiness" compare to other pads. However, in my absolute rating, it's a little bit dusty :-) I'm now using Premier pads for my K100RSA and F650 and satisfied with it. Hope this helps, ___________________________________________________________ Satoru "Sam" MANITA - Saitama JAPAN | BMWRA #21114 | '91 K100RS ABS (private) | '94 F650 aka (at work) | and more... =========================================================== From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 2 20:03:13 1997 From: "Rob Lentini" To: , "IBMWR" Subject: BMW: re: Help!! Front Brake Squeal K100RS Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:38:47 -0600 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Rob Lentini" You (no name) said: ==== Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:21:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Solipsist9NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: Re: BMW: Help!! Front Brake Squeal K100RS join the club. had a minor squeal on mine and decided to try to "fix" it w/new pads. now it's worse. was told the same, although I've heard dunlopads are pretty good at minimizing sound. I can live with it. also tried brake cleaner which helped for about 10 minutes of city driving. oh well. new rotors at 200 each is not worth a little noise to me. john solipsist9NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com 85 k100rs ==== Or try this for a complete fix: Install older BMW 525i "anti-noise" shims on your front brakes. These are inexpensive Teflon backed thin plates which eliminate squeal. They came standard on rear calipers of this car. JUST BE SURE THAT THE CALIPER PISTONS CAN FULLY RETRACT ALL THE WAY OR YOU CAN DRAG YOUR BRAKES AND CAUSE A SAFETY PROBLEM. This has been addressed by BMW, so be careful here! Having said this, I used these plates on my K75S for years with no problems. Get them at your car dealer. Bring a brake pad down for match-up. Rob Lentini Tucson, AZ (520) 790-8865 '94 R1100RS Three Flags 97 #205 MSF, BMWMOA, BMWRA, IOC, AMA Candidate for BMWMOA Director "Let's RIDE more and politic LESS" From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 3 10:06:28 1997 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 06:34:16 -0700 From: Scott Lee Organization: CAD Toolbox To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: re:K-Bike Brake Squeal Reply-To: Scott Lee I use SBS brake pads on my 88 K100RS and have only the occasional mild brake squeal, which occurs when some foriegn matter (like a small pebble)embeds itself into the pad. No contaminants, no squeal. And, they work better (wet or dry) and last longer than stock, with essentially no rotor wear (non-metallic). Scott Lee Somewhere in L.A. NOT #e From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 3 12:14:24 1997 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:30:28 -0800 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: tdcNoSpam@NoSpamwell.com (Tom Childers) Subject: Re: BMW: Help!! Front Brake Squeel K100RS Reply-To: tdcNoSpam@NoSpamwell.com (Tom Childers) John says: >join the club. had a minor squeel on mine and decided to try to "fix" it >w/new pads. now it's worse. was told the same, although i've heard dunlopads >are pretty good at minimizing sound. On my KRS, EBC pads got rid of the squeal. I also found that Ferodo pads were pretty quiet. -tdc Tom Childers 1989 K100RS, 78,000 mi. tchilderNoSpam@NoSpamsybase.com, tdcNoSpam@NoSpamwell.com 1979 R100S, 91,000... Corte Madera, California 1979 528i, 190,000... From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 03:37:10 1997 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:16:18 +0200 From: Bob DeHaney To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: ABS Brakes Reply-To: Bob DeHaney Das Motorrad magazine has done extensive tests of ABS systems on motorcycles. Their tests prove conclusively that with the ABS their is better control and reduced brakeing distance under all conditions. Remember, an ABS braked wheel doesn't skid and a skidding wheel is starting to ride on a puddle of melted rubber. As a matter of fact, the ONLY guys who can brake better without ABS, are Professional Grand Prix Racing Riders (which I believe are a minority on this list). I took the BMW factory advanced riders course, and we repeatedly did high speed full brake everything (front and rear) stops and evasion exercises without dropping anything using the ABS. What some guys also forget is that at low speeds (2-3 mph) the ABS doesn't work. Annnd I don't think we should compare car and bike ABS systems, you're talking apples and oranges. The envelopes are different. In spite of the weight differences, due to the far more extensive tire contact areas, cars always brake better than bikes. There have been a lot of serious tests confirming this. This also explains why a racing car will get around the same course faster than a racing bikes as tested last month by Das Motorrad on the Nuerburgring. The Ducati lost against the car on the straights and in the chicanes. They used a car and bike with similar power to weight ratios. Also don't forget that if you follow a cage too closely in the tight twisties and that Mother brakes suddenly, you're already in trouble ABS or not. Bob in Munich '94 K1100RS From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 09:25:17 1997 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:59:21 +0200 From: Bob DeHaney To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Cars vs. Bike Stopping,etc. Reply-To: Bob DeHaney I think I can make it a little clearer. The basic factor is how much weight is on each square millimeter of rubber on the road. You measure the area of the tire contact and divide it by the weight of the vehicle. The car or tank has much less weight per square millimeter of contact area, so has less to stop, hence the better brakeing. This is why bikes acquaplane less often than cars, they press through the water film instead of riding up on top like wide car tires do because the load on the film is higher. My usual speed limitation in the rain is not the road, but the visibility. Bob in Munich '94 K1100Rs From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 12:28:18 1997 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:52:21 +0200 From: Bob DeHaney To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: ABS Function Reply-To: Bob DeHaney Nick I'm an electronic engineer and networker now in my new reincarnation. However, I sold the sensors. It works like this (KISS explanation). The "teeth" on your are wheels are ferrous (iron) metal and pass by a magnet incorporated in the pickup resulting in a change in the magnets strength.. The pickup also contains a so called Hall effect sensor which is a solid state device (like a transistor) which can sense changes in magnetic fields. Everytime one of these "teeth" goes by the sensor, it generates an electrical pulse which is sent to the on-board computer. If the pulse doesn't come when expected (depending on speed which is evaluated by internal software), the computer "knows" that the wheel is not rotating (locked) and sends a command to the pressure modulator (that's the black thing with ABS I or II written on it)and it causes the brake caliper to release. The wheel moves again which allows you to brake again and soforth resulting in your brakes locking and unlocking until the wheel reaches the speed at which the onboard computer says that the pulses are coming as expected or you stop. This is the reason for the juddery feeling. (In cars the brake pedal slaps your foot.) The main difference between ABS I and II is that in the second generation they've fine tuned the software and the modulators so that the on-off is closer together and the modulators have more degrees of pressure release. That's the reason the ABS II feels like it's not as heavy handed as ABS I. The panic stopping distances are just about the same though. By the way this is the same way your contactless ignition system works, only the magnet is now on the distributor rotor. Bob in Munich '94 K1100RS From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 18:51:01 1997 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:20:48 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: "Michael A. Schen" Subject: BMW: Power Bleeding ABS II Reply-To: "Michael A. Schen" Hey Gang........... Here's a tech question I hope the list can help me out on. Last weekend, while a bunch of us DCers were working on our bikes at Bill "Toodles" Shaw's manor, I set about to power bleed the brakes on my 94 K11RS. Power bleeding, as I understand it, is nothing more than replacing the brake fluid by 'sucking' it out, rather than letting ole mother nature, e.g. gravity, do its trick. The sucking tool, a bleeding pump which attaches to the caliper nipples to remove spent fluids. Sounds good already!!! Before beginning, I had asked some of the local shop guys how to bleed ABS II equipped bikes. The answer, first bleed as you normally would by sucking the old fluid out at the brake calipers themselves. Then, to exchange the fluid within the ABS unit itself, suck out old fluid via the two nipples on top of the modulator while always keeping the reservoirs plenty full. One is labeled "VR" or Vordenes Rad (German for front wheel) the other "HR" or Hinteres Rad (German for rear wheel). Sounds easy enough, right?? Well it did not seem to go that smoothly. First, sucking the fluid from the calipers was a bitch. Even with vacuum, it went way slow. When we tried pumping the front brake lever to facilitate the flush, it had no effect. Only when the reservoir was sealed back up and pumping began did appreicable fluid come forth. Then when we turned our attention to the ABS module itself, even with something like 60 in Hg of vacuum, for the life of us we were BARELY able to suck some fluid from the ABS modulator. Try as we might, it was nearly impossible to suck out much of the old stuff. Obviously, either we were not doing something right, or were just not patient enough! So, if I may ask, HOW THE HELL DO YA POWER BLEED ABS II BRAKES? I know the ABS unit works, cause I let it do it's thing all the time. Any help would be much appreciated. TIA DCM <><><><><><> K <><><> K <><><><><><> DCMike Schen dcmikeNoSpam@NoSpamerols.com Washington, DC, USA 94 K11RS "Tom of Deutschland" BMWBMW, BMWMOA, BMWRA, IBMWR BMW MOBster " RIDE HARD, PLAY SAFE " <><><><><><> K <><><> K <><><><><><> From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jun 11 11:51:54 1997 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:46:10 -0400 From: Sue Schofield Subject: BMW: K Front brake,revisited To: "INTERNET:bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com" Reply-To: Sue Schofield >>> My front brake lever comes back toward the grip much too far in warm weather Is this the disintegrating rubber brake hose syndrome? Would Goodridge braided steel hoses help? As everything else has been replaced you might try this. Or keep the pads and sell the bike... Sue Eastbourne UK K1100RS From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jun 11 12:33:45 1997 From: Joe Senner Subject: Re: BMW: Bleeding ABS2 To: Diaz_JonNoSpam@NoSpammacmail1.cig.mot.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:27:15 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Joe Senner ]Mike.....I've bled the brakes on my RT twice, and just pulled the fluid ]straight thru from the reservoir to the caliper (the modulator is buried ]under the tank and difficult to access) without a problem. It did take ]a long time tho, as the fit between the bleed nipple and the caliper body ]is pretty bad. put some speed bleeders in. the threads have a thick seaer on them so they stay sealed when you loosen them up, and they have a reverse check ball built in. just loosen and pump :-) and no, I'm not talking about your belt, Jon :-) -- Joe Senner Tandem Computers, Inc. SoD #24 From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jun 11 22:12:17 1997 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:48:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "James B. Hair" To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: ABS bleeding-(DCMike) Reply-To: "James B. Hair" Mike: I bought a vacum bleeding tool from Imparts after I ruined a seal in the master cylinder pumping it by hand last year. I then found out that there are no re-build kits available for the later Ks and Rs.(new master cylinder $128) I found one off of a wrecked Klt and bought it for $20. I used the bleeder tool and found that if I bleed the ABS unit first (it is the highest point in the system-both units) and then to the wheels I was able to bleed it in half the time it used to take to do it by pumping the brake handle. I first took all the old fluid out of the mc and replaced it with new. (same for the rear mc). The one problem I had was at the nipple where the bleeding tool connected- it allows air to be sucked in around the nipple and you lose your vacum rather quickly. So you just stop by closing the nipple and pump up the vacum again and then release it and continue. Actually it was much easier-I did not spill any brake fluid- and I didn't mess up any seals. The Imparts tool cost me $49. Hope this is helpful. later, jim hair. Rogersville Mo. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 13 05:46:08 1997 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:46:02 +0100 To: "Michael A. Schen" , bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Adrian Stone Subject: Re: BMW: Power Bleeding ABS II Reply-To: Adrian Stone In message , "Michael A. Schen" writes >Hey Gang........... > >Here's a tech question I hope the list can help me out on. > >Last weekend, while a bunch of us DCers were working on our bikes at Bill >"Toodles" Shaw's manor, I set about to power bleed the brakes on my 94 >K11RS. Power bleeding, as I understand it, is nothing more than replacing >the brake fluid by 'sucking' it out, rather than letting ole mother nature, >e.g. gravity, do its trick. The sucking tool, a bleeding pump which >attaches to the caliper nipples to remove spent fluids. Sounds good already!!! >So, if I may ask, HOW THE HELL DO YA POWER BLEED ABS II BRAKES? I know the >ABS unit works, cause I let it do it's thing all the time. Any help would >be much appreciated. In the UK there's a product called Eazi-bleed, really designed for bleeding car brakes which works by connecting a car tyre via an airline to an air tight cap that fits on the master cylinder via an inline resevoir of brake fluid. This *pushes* the new fluid through, and I guess souns more efficient than sucking it out (what does it taste like ;-)). I've used it on cars before with good results - really speeds things up. -- Adrian at work via a K100RS ! Comments do not necessarily reflect those of SOLOTEC - then again ! From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 17 14:04:49 1997 From: EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:13:57 -0400 (EDT) To: gbbNoSpam@NoSpamcreighton.edu, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: K100RS brake rotor needed Reply-To: EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com In a message dated 97-06-17 12:41:59 EDT, gbbNoSpam@NoSpamcreighton.edu writes: << I have a 1986 K100RS with a badly warped front rotor (non ABS.) Where can I get a reasonable replacement (stock or not)? >> Both Braking and EBC make replacement rotors for this and other BMWs. Much less expensive than stock. This is a direct copy of the EBC on-line catalog: K75/K100 (NON ABS) 83-91 MD604LS MD604RS Steve Heywood AMA#417841 MOA#71886 RA#21291 IOC#668 GOB#11 Pinole, CA R1100RTL Yamaha 650 Seca From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 20 16:55:21 1997 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:39:57 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamfacteur.std.com From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: RE: K100RS brake rotor needed Cc: gbbNoSpam@NoSpamcreighton.edu Reply-To: Don Eilenberger George asks: >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:19:17 CDT >From: gbbNoSpam@NoSpamcreighton.edu >Subject: BMW: K100RS brake rotor needed > >I have a 1986 K100RS with a badly warped front rotor (non ABS.) >Where can I get a reasonable replacement (stock or not)? > >- -George (gbbNoSpam@NoSpamcreighton.edu) George - sorta a FYI.. I just put a 'Braking' floating rotor on the rear of my K bike.. the same rotor is offered for the front of K100's.. assuming your K has dual rotors (never saw one that didn't), you'd be needing two of them if you went this route. I was sorta warned by several people that the Braking rotor was: 1. Sold by a buncha loons - dunno. Ordered it though a friendly non-bmw dealer 2. Difficult to fit - wasn't. Once I got the old rotor off the carrier, it bolted right up and fit just fine. 3. Implied that it was prone to fade - dunno. I haven't yet. Pluses it has over stock: 1. It floats - ie, the actual rotor floats a slight bit in relationship to the aluminum carrier. This will help to correct for out-of-true on the carrier, or for minor warpage of the disk itself. 2. It is thicker than stock. Stock starts at 0.170", and the wear limit is 0.130". Braking's rotor starts at 0.200". This might cause a problem if you installed new pads - I didn't, just reusing the stock BMW pads. I'm not certain if this WILL cause a problem, just a heads up on the possibility. 3. It was less expensive - for me. I bought it through a friend who is an aftermarket mechanic - he gave it to me at near his cost.. it cost me $150. I also bought a worn out rotor/carrier from Eurotech to use the carrier off-of (since mine still worked fine, but was under spec for thickness, I wanted to keep mine as a spare in case any of the warnings I got were true). Cost of the carrier (with a worn out disk attached was $25). Total cost was about $175.. Downsides: 1. Removing the old rivits is a PITA. Gotta have a good centerpunch, a very sharp drill bit (suggest at least 3/8" or bigger) and a good solid drill press. Once I arranged the above - it took about 1/2 hour to accomplish. 2. Rumors about it - as per above. Haven't had them come true, butt you never know. 3. If you're doing the front, only way I'd do it is both of them at the same time. The actual rotor appears to be made (from the 'style/grammer' of the English instructions on the rear of the large blisterpac) in a pacific rim country - undefined on my package. It is then imported by "braking" in California. Quality tooked excellent, good finish, blanchard ground surface, good fit. The packaging claims the disk is 'laser cut' to avoid changing the characteristics of the disk material. Hows it feel? Just about like the old one - which I was only replacing since it was about 0.135" thick.. it still felt OK.. It does have round holes in it - the original K disks in the front have slots - the very first K disk for the rear were the same, but cracking started occuring on them radiating out from the slots.. BMW quickly went to a solid (undrilled) rear disk. The holes may present an advantage in cooling and water relief when it's raining.. dunno since I haven't ridden it in the rain yet. HTH.. ================================== Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ================================== From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 20 17:57:23 1997 Subject: BMW: Re: Ferodo pads on an R100GS Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 14:37:06 -0700 From: Sasha Pave To: Reply-To: Sasha Pave Pat: I would use caution with Ferodo pads. Although I've used them on my race bikes in the past with good luck, I was told to avoid them for my GS. Recently I had my front rotor replaced because it was worn thin and slightly warped. While taking the old rotor and pads off, my mechanic Dave at Recommended Service (SF) noticed my Ferodo pads and said he's replaced many rotors because of them. Apparently they chew through the rotors more quickly than BMW pads. I couldn't tell a difference between the Ferodos and BMW pads, but this might be a symptom of my new rotor/pad combination. I don't know, perhaps it's a good trade off: Replacing the rotors more frequently in favor of better braking performance. I think if it was a noticeable difference on my GS, I would sacrifice rotors for safety. Best, Sasha Pat Roddy wrote: >Subject: Ferodo pads on an R100GS >Message-ID: <19970619212016.AAA15264NoSpam@NoSpamproddy.randomc.com> > > > He laid a pair of Ferodo pads on me last night and I just came back in >from breaking them in. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Jun 23 20:11:27 1997 From: "Mike Lukachek" To: Subject: BMW: K front brake, epilog Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:57:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: "Mike Lukachek" Fixed, done and over with. The prize goes to Brian Curry. For his efforts he receives two weeks in Hawaii, of course he has to make all arrangements and pay all costs. Here's how it goes, Bob sez, You got an air bubble in the master cylinder. I sez, But Bob, I find it hard to believe that just 10 degrees in temperature rise can cause the air to expand enough to cause the problem. Bob sez, Trust me. Get all contorted and get that master cylinder in an angled position so that it can come out. I sez, Okey dokie. But I usually only do that for sex. Sure enough, it took about seven days but it finally came out. All better. Thank Bob! Mike From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jun 27 14:32:44 1997 From: proseNoSpam@NoSpamdraper.com Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BMW: Bedding brakes in!!!!!! To: danielbNoSpam@NoSpamelite.calvacom.fr, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: proseNoSpam@NoSpamdraper.com Daniel, New brakes must be bed in. My procedure was taught to me by a friend/mechanic who has raced cars for a long time. After installation of the new brakes work them slowly up to temperature with 3 or 4 medium stops. Then do a couple of hard stops and to the brakes really hot. Do this close to home so that after the hard stops you can ride home and park the bike and let the brakes cool. My friends explanation of what happens is that the several medium stops are to bring the resins from the pad to the surface, and the hard stops burn them off. I have been using this technique for years and have never had a problem and always get long fade free life from my pads. FWIW, I usually use Ferodos. Cheers, Phactory Phil aka Phil Rose proseNoSpam@NoSpamdraper.com _______________________________________________________________________________ Clymer says : dont work the brakes too hard during the break-in, as it could glaze the pads, resulting in less braking power, instead work them softly, smoothly, and often. Daniel Bleriot danielbNoSpam@NoSpamelite.calvacom.fr danielNoSpam@NoSpamcalva.net From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 9 15:39:25 1997 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:19:22 +0100 From: Nick Horley To: pmkayNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: Re: ABS light on R1100RT Reply-To: Nick Horley Paul - not sure how to pitch this, so here is an excess of info in the hope that the answer you need is in here somewhere. The ABS self test only works when the bike is moving at walking pace, and it needs plenty of juice from the battery. (It doesn't need your engine to be warm,or even running.) If your battery is a bit weak, and you deplete it further by using the starter motor, the ABS self test will often fail. There are lots of ways around this: 1) stop after a hundred yards, switch off, and start again. If your battery is in good shape, it will have recovered sufficiently for the test to work. If not... 2) charge your battery further by riding a few miles with the lights, grips etc turned off, at moderately high revs. Then do (1). 3) before you start the engine push the bike forward in neutral with the ignition on. If you walk fast enough the self test should operate immediately, unless the battery is really sick. 4) start the bike without using the starter, i.e. by getting a push or rolling downhill. Switching off and on while driving and using the bike's momentum to do a bump start doesn't work if you are going faster than walking pace. None of the above will radically improve the state of your battery, which could be weakened by doing lots of short trips, or running everywhere with loads of lights, grips etc switched on, or just parking up for a week with the alarm set. The cure for this is a battery charger. Use it regularly and save money by prolonging the life of your battery. BMW do a small, simple one which plugs into your accessory socket. ( Doubtless other prezzes can recommend a better/cheaper/glitzier alternative.) Reading between the lines of your posting, it looks like you warm the bike up on the stand before you drive away. I don't have my manual handy to check this, but I think it may be bad for your motor. I don't think the oil circulates properly until you start driving, so it's best to move off as soon as you start up. Feel free to correct me on this - I may be confusing the GS with some other vehicle I've had in the past! From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 9 12:33:20 1997 From: EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:55:43 -0400 (EDT) To: pmkayNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com, bmw-r1100NoSpam@NoSpamcinnamon.com Subject: Re: BMW: ABS light on R1100RT Reply-To: EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com In a message dated 97-07-09 10:04:09 EDT, pmkayNoSpam@NoSpamEARTHLINK.NET (Paul M. Kay) writes: << Recently the warning light for the ABS on the bike will not shut off after I warm it up and drive away. Only after a few miles, when the engine is hot, will the ABS set itself ( that's only after I shut it off and turn it on again). My procedure is to turn the bike on and let the bike do the self diagnosis before I turn it over. >> Paul, Unless both ABS lights are flashing together they will not go out when you ride away, EVER! If you start the bike and they are blinking alternatly then you have a couple of choices. You can shut off the engine and try a restart, or you can do what I've started doing. Ride off with the lights blinking (remember...NO ABS!) then I pull in the clutch and with my right hand turn the key off then back on. The ABS will reset almost immediately then I restart the engine and continue down the road. Steve Heywood AMA#417841 MOA#71886 RA#21291 IOC#668 GOB#11 Pinole, CA R1100RTL Yamaha 650 Seca From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 10 12:20:04 1997 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:55:06 -0700 From: Scott Lee Organization: CAD Toolbox To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: BMW: re:"early" K-Bike (non-abs) front brakes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Reply-To: Scott Lee There was mention earlier comparing a k-bikes unfavorably to a connies binders, heres' my response.. The single piston front brakes on the early (pre-dual piston brakes) k-bikes CAN be made to work as well as just about any street bike. 2-finger controlled at-the-edge-of-lockup control at any speed, even modulated lockup (for that howling front tire effect..) Heres how: 1. Junk those wimpy stock brake lines for some braded lines. Mine came from Luftmeister and included a rear line, but there are several sources. This will firm up the feel at the lever, allowing two-finger brake control from any speed. Cost: less than $150.00 u.s. dollars for parts, labor should be less than 1 hour at your dealer if you don't do it yourself. 2. Install sbs brake pads, p/n 506 HF. Cost: about $60.00 u.s. dollars for both calipers. 506 LF for the rear isn't a bad idea, either (the LF pads are "low friction", which gives better feel for the rear brake). 3. Bed in the pads by doing ten hard stops from 60-->0 M.P.H. (100 kph) to heat the pads to their max temp. You should feel some fade in the last few stops..then let the pads cool down. Total cost: around $200 for the lines (labor included) plus $60 for pads (maybe $90 if you do the rear pads too) for a total of around $300 for lines and pads, but worth every penny when you crest a rise in the road and see a tight corner (or a deer) ahead. Highly recommended IMHO. Scott Lee Somewhere in L.A. NOT #e From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 10 12:47:31 1997 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:22:18 -0400 From: Bill To: bmw list , blueNoSpam@NoSpamcity-net.com Subject: BMW: brakes??? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Reply-To: Bill Carolla wrote: > Subject: BMW: RE: Re:Going back in time > > You mean this bike is supposed to stop? > Thats where my being a little girl is difficult. I *do* have to exert an amazing > amount of force and determination to get this train of a bike to stop. I think > the main problem there is that the lever is out too far for my reach, and > I have to brake with the tips of my fingers. Next time I will pop some > spinach > first. Everything else about this bike makes it a joy to ride, well except the > seat...but roll on the throttle, and forget your pain. > > Cheers! > > Carolla > 1975 R90s the Starlight Express (daytona orange) Carolla, you may want to try another brake pad. I have had good results on my R90/6 with EBC pads and on faster bikes with Dunlopads ( made by Dunlop ). The dunlopads will stoppy a sportbike with one finger on the lever and modulate very well. ( don't know if they make them for BMW though ) Bill From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Thu Jul 10 17:16:59 1997 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:29:29 -0400 From: "Scott C. Adams" Organization: Attorney at Law, P.O. Box 4069, Akron, Ohio 44321-0069 To: rwmundayNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com, bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: ABS Brake Fault X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Reply-To: "Scott C. Adams" rwmundayNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com wrote: > Fellow Presidents, > > I just spoke to a BMW dealer by phone who suggested that I disconnect > my > Hyper-Lites and retest my ABS brakes to see if they will reset > properly. > Have any of you heard of this particular testing method? > > Robert > '89 K100LT(A on the fritz) K-Whiner #47 Village Idiot Rolling > Broccoli Rider > Montgomery, Alabama Bob - I would seriously search for a new dealer. Even if everything is perfect now, your ABS will not reset without the computer. ABS I, which you have, has the wonderful ability to fault and stay faulted now matter how much things get perfect. The idea of low voltage causing a fault and then resetting upon recharging the battery is only applicable to ABS II. -Scott -- *********************************************************************** ** SCOTT ADAMS (KB8PRS) or FRANCES ADAMS (KB8PRL) ** ** adamsesqNoSpam@NoSpamgwis.com fwaNoSpam@NoSpamsbstone.com ** ** 1426 Copley Meadows, Copley, Ohio 44321, USA (North East Ohio) ** ** Voice (330) 668-2006 Fax (330) 668-2006 ** ** KWhiner MC#13 BMWMOA #61199 BMWRA AMA #270-228/270-229 ** ** 91 K100RS16V(Mine) 86 K75C Low(Hers) Trailer Behind KRS(Baby) ** *********************************************************************** From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jul 11 20:35:09 1997 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:44:23 -0500 (CDT) To: rogerNoSpam@NoSpammostro.sps.mot.com (roger albert) From: Craig Vechorik Subject: Re: BMW: /2 testride and brakes and carbs (fun/scary) Cc: BMWMCNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Craig Vechorik Roger: At 09:08 AM 7/11/97 CDT, you wrote: > >Hi all, > >Wow! Just took my first short (around the block) ride on my wrecked /2 >acquisition. A bit more work and it'll be inspectable/legal. Rides like >a dream (flip-side: brakes like a nightmare). Wow, transmission shifts >nicely too! Having only ridden 7--present R-bikes, I didn't know beemers >could do that. I'm not going to get anywhere in a hurry, but I _am_ >gonna like this little guy. > >I'm pretty sure even these old beasts should brake better than this. As it >stands, ther rear brake provides well over twice as much stopping power >as the front. Hardly seems sporting (or safe) A quick perusal of my manual >didn't reveal much. I did note that when pulling in the lever (which is >fairly easy - new cable etc) that the rear break-pivot-arm (on the front >wheel, I mean) moves much more than the front one (where the cable is anchored) >I've pretty much got all the slack adjusted out) Where do I go from here. >I'd really like to stop without the aid of the rear bumper ahead of me. Remove the brake shoes, drill out the copper rivits, and throw the molded, asbestos, glazed liners away. Buy some AF 232 brake shoe materal (5/32" thick) from Industrial brake and Supply, in Cincinnatti, OH, and put it on with 1/8 inch Aluminum pop rivets, after you drill and countersink the holes. Make's 'm stop MUCH better! > >Also: > >Can anyone describe, or does anyone have or know of a write-up on how to >get /2 carbs (as on my '65 R60/2) adjusted. Ideally, from ground-zero, as >if everything was totally messed up? (It's not yet, but might well end >up that way as I "improve" things.) I'm so used to vac-carbs on both old >cars and new bikes that I'm not up on slide type in general, much less these >old bings. Yea, this is pretty easy too.. But first, check to see that the timing is dead on, and that you do not have differential timing between the two cyls which will indicate that the advance is worn out. The advances tend to wear unevenly, which causes the points to open to 2 different gaps, as the engine runs. Check this by removing the wire from the coil, and from the condensor, and using a VOM meter, (one lead on the points, the other grounded to the engine) turn the engine r-e-a-l slow, in the direction which it runs, and watch to see where the points break. It should be just as the "S" mark on the flywheel gets even with the stationary mark on the case. In any event, mark the spot with a pencil, and then turn the engine over 360 degrees, and check it again. If you find that the points break at a different spot on the flywheel, the advance is worn. A small difference, say 3/16" difference won't matter too much, but much more than that will give a noticable difference in power, and cause one cylinder to do all the work, while the other sort of follows behind. Anyway, this makes it very hard, if not impossible to get the carbs in sync. I'll tell you more/later about carb sync, if you wish. (gotta do some work) "They pretend to pay me, I pretend to work" ;) > > >Thanks in advance for any info or help. /2s rule (well, except for ANY > measureable criteria > other than age) No, "REAL BMW's have ROUND tail lights, and ROLLER Cranks" :) > >regards >roger > >=================================================== >Roger Albert (go Illini!) Motorola. Austin, Texas >rogerNoSpam@NoSpammostro.sps.mot.com Wireless/DSP Div. 563xx >work tel (512) 891-6426 work fax: (512) 891-2947 >Red Ducati M900 White 65 BMW R60/2 Blue 76 R90/6 >'74 R90/6 Sidecar project now on hold - but always >searching for a great deal on a nice chair for it! >1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado restoration now underway! >--------------------------------------------------- >Opinions expressed are always mine --, never Moto's >=================================================== > > Craig Vechorik "Captain Wayback" BMW MOA Ambassador # 9462 BMW RA #17503 Tech Editor, # 1373 BMW Vintage Bulletin Secretary, Vintage BMW Motorcycles Owners, Ltd. 601 324 1354 H 601 325 2103 of. Starkville, (where is that?) Mississippi '36 R12, '36 R17, '51 R51/3, '56 R26, '75 R90S Riding through life, still hack'd. [_] / +++=\ /=+++ \\-_-// _|(_)|_ ____ ||___|| / \ || _ || / ____ \ /||| ||| _0_ |\ /)//|||-|||||) | | ( \ / )(|||| |||||) | | ( | | )= ||| ||| |___|==( / \ ) | | | | (/___ \) | | |_| |_| ***************************************************** From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sat Jul 12 12:09:05 1997 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:31:50 -0500 To: scott lee From: Jonathan Hutchins Subject: Re: BMW: re:"early" K-Bike (non-abs) front brakes Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: Jonathan Hutchins At 08:55 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Scott Lee wrote: > 3. Bed in the pads by doing ten hard stops from 60-->0 M.P.H. (100 >kph) to heat the pads to their max temp. You should feel some fade in >the last few stops..then let the pads cool down. In my experience, that's a real good way to warp rotors. Jonathan Hutchins hutchinsNoSpam@NoSpamsky.net The Wolf's Den BBS (FIDO 1:280/76) FAA A&P, PPSEL '85 K100 (LT) From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jul 13 01:23:11 1997 From: "drbob27" To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:13:11 +0000 Subject: Re: BMW: re:"early" K-Bike (non-abs) front brakes Reply-To: "drbob27" > > 3. Bed in the pads by doing ten hard stops from 60-->0 M.P.H. (100 > >kph) to heat the pads to their max temp. You should feel some fade in > >the last few stops..then let the pads cool down. > > In my experience, that's a real good way to warp rotors. > My old cage racing experience pays off in technology transfer. Cook the pads in a toaster oven at max for about 15 minutes. Probably doesn't matter, but I let the whole thing cool slowly rather than go for the hot pads. A trick for those of us who didn't want to waste track time bedding pads. BTW, when bedding pads on the track, the drill was to coast around for the last lap, not touching the brakes to let the disks cool down. Us more anal types also pushed the car a little a few times in the pits to not leave one part of the disk in the caliper all the time. Finally, the whole thing is unnecessary if you're willing to break the pads in on the street with moderately hard stops for the first 100 urban miles or so. The other trick for those of us who raced street cars was to break pads in on the street, and always keep a broken in set ready for the track. bob From EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Tue Jul 22 20:17:39 1997 From: EXLAXATCNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:17:02 -0400 (EDT) To: thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net Subject: Re: EBC? In a message dated 97-07-22 19:17:59 EDT, you write: << Back in June you posted a message to bmwmc with a part number for a rotor, from the "EBC online catalog." What is this EBC thing, and what is their URL, please? >> Tom, EBC is a brand name, I think it stands for "European Brake Co" or something similar. They sell brake pads, shoes, and replacement rotors for most bikes. They most impressed me by building replacement semi-floating for my 82 Yamaha 650 Seca (can you say old and obsolete). I now have their "Green" kevlar pads on both ends of my R1100RT and am very impressed with them. Much improved "bite" compared to the stockers yet very easy to modulate. Their URL is:http://www.ebc-brakes.com/ebc.html Steve Heywood AMA#417841 MOA#71886 RA#21291 IOC#668 GOB#11 Pinole, CA R1100RTL Yamaha 650 Seca From cadtoolsNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net Tue Jul 22 20:25:15 1997 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:27:03 -0700 From: Scott Lee Organization: CAD Toolbox To: thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net Subject: Re: sbs brake pads X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Thomas Hundt wrote: > Scott, you seem to swear by these, where does one obtain them? > It's time for me to get new pads, and though I'll probably get > stock ones because I'm in a hurry, I want to be ready for next > time. > > Thanks > > -Tom Hundt Competition accessories had them (If I remember correctly); most dealers can get them "special order", as they are distributed by "Tucker Rocky", the main bike part distributor in the country (I think..). Is this a non-answer?? If competition accessories does not pan out, try Chaparall mail order, they have ads in just about all the motorcycle magazines. I get mine special order thru my local BMW dealer, Brown Motor Works in Pomona, Ca. (909) 629-2132. Are you up in the bay area?? I would think that Cal BMW in Mountain View(?) would stock them. Most BMW dealers do not stock or advise the use of SBS brake pads, and I think it is because of the combination of product liability and profitability and agreements with BMW to sell factory parts when possible. Can't really blame them, if you crash and blame the pads that you bought at a BMW dealer on the dump, the dealer is in a defensive position unless they were BMW pads, where he can then transfer the problem to BMW. And he probably makes more money off of BMW pads than aftermarket stuff... Really no reason for him to stock non-BMW pads, but I seem to see a lot of Ferodo pads at dealers, I don't know why (faster rotor wear? Sell more rotors?? I dunnow) I'll stop rambling on now.. Scott Lee From cadtoolsNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net Wed Jul 23 16:47:35 1997 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:49:42 -0700 From: Scott Lee Organization: CAD Toolbox To: thundtNoSpam@NoSpamslack.net Subject: Re: sbs brake pads X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Thomas Hundt wrote: > Thanks, Scott. I have the Chaparrel catalog (didn't think they > had boring stuff like brake pads) and know about Competion > Accessories (and am not thrilled by them). Was planning to check > at Kari's place next time I'm down there. > > Got stock pads last night for now because I'm in a rush, but will > probably try either the SBS or EBC ones next time around. > > Thanks! > > -Tom Stay away from EBC unless you like to buy new rotors, and are thrilled by the sound of squealing.. Tales of rotor wear from ebc pads are out there, a friends' FZR 1000 ate its rotors in short order with ebc gold pads. SBS or ferodo, EBC's are false economy, even though they are conveniently stocked by everybody (probably free shelving, pay-as-you-sell-them marketing). Scott Lee From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Aug 10 11:28:45 1997 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:28 +0100 From: Frank Murtagh To: "Shamsury Abd.Karim" Cc: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Subject: Re: BMW: Brake hoses Reply-To: Frank Murtagh X-No-Archive: yes Snip... Does anybody knows whether it is all right to use braided > hoses(Goodridge braided hoses) on these ABS brakes. > Sam Karim Sam, I have braided steel lines on my R11GS which has ABS and they work just fine. Best, Frank Frank Murtagh R11GS *Longbow* Yeovil From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Mon Aug 11 03:54:22 1997 Date: 11 Aug 97 03:40:22 EDT From: Bob DeHaney <100013.413NoSpam@NoSpamCompuServe.COM> To: bmwmc Subject: BMW: Re: ABS and Braided Brake Lines Reply-To: Bob DeHaney <100013.413NoSpam@NoSpamCompuServe.COM> X-No-Archive: yes I repeat: BMW in Germany warns strictly against using braided lines on ABS bikes as the sharp pulses may damage the modulators (the black things with ABS printed on them). None!! of the braided line suppliers in Germany will supply for ABS BMWs, ONLY non-ABS bikes. Bob DeHaney in Munich '94 K1100RS From "Filak, John F" Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:54:00 -0500 From: "Filak, John F" Subject: BMW: New Product Hey Presidents! Here's something that came across the Moto Guzzi list tonight. Has anybody tried this yet? It sounds like a good one! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:46:22 -0400 From: Mike Busch To: Moto Guzzi motorcycle ma Subject: Brake Bleeding with Speed Bleeders Message-ID: <199708260846_MC2-1E3B-C30DNoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com> Here's a recommendation for a product - = Over the weekend I installed a set of speed bleeder screws on my '89 Cal III. If you change your brake fluid every season like I do these screws a= re a wonderful convenience. They make brake bleeding VERY easy for one perso= n. Hook up a clear plastic hose to the bleeder screw, open 1/4 turn and pump= the pedal to your heart's content. The screws have a check valve built in= to them. Watch the brake fluid level in the reservoir so you don't run it dr= y and the screws do the rest. Works great and for a mere $6.50 plus $2.00 each for shipping and handling. They have sizes to fit just about ever application with new sizes being added. The owner Michael Sulwer lets you= try the screws to see if they fit before sending payment. The company's info: Speed Bleeder Products PO Box 306 Lemont, ILL 60439 Ph: 630 - 739 - 4620 Fax: 630 - 739 - 9626 Http://www.speedbleeder.com email: speedbleederNoSpam@NoSpamsuper-highway.net John Filak Lafayette New Jersey USA Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:34:34 -0400 From: daliNoSpam@NoSpamnetrox.net (Dali Meeow) Subject: BMW: Brake Speed Bleeders John Filak passed on some good information about using speed bleeders to help with the annual brake fluid change and to purge the system of air. The brake bleeding info at http://www.ibmwr.org/rtech/r1100_brk_bld.html says speed bleeders are being tested. They were tested and passed the test six months ago B U T with a warning ... be very careful not to force them too far into the threaded hole in the housing during initial installation. You can wreck the housing by forcing them in too far. When installed properly, merely open the speed bleeder by turning counter-clockwise. A stop valve will prevent air from entering the brake system at the speed bleeder. I use a Mighty-Vac AND the speed bleeder together and changing fluid is fast and easy. Follow the instructions at the web site. I have speed bleeders on both bikes; cheap and easy to install. Check with the manufacturer for the correct size for your bike. RTFM Read the fine manual. Speed Bleeder Products PO Box 306 Lemont, ILL 60439 Ph: 630 - 739 - 4620 Fax: 630 - 739 - 9626 Http://www.speedbleeder.com email: speedbleederNoSpam@NoSpamsuper-highway.net Stephen and the Royal Feline Fur Ball Production Company ... upside-down Dali Meeow (chanting lama prayers to perverse traction Gods), ever-vigilant Miss Fluff (guarding the back yard from those ubiquitous back yard thieves), and the feline formerly known as Fancy (seeking stardom with pink lips and swingin' hips). The Miami menagerie. From bmwmick >Hi Derrick, > > I just got back from Atlanta, ben there from 8/15-8/27. The ABS might >just be one of the sensors. You can measure them to see if they look OK. >You're looking for a transformer-like resistance, maybe 50 ohms or so with >the connector apart. Just put the probes on the two wires in the connector. >You can even see the pulses if you switch to a scale on the ohmeter that >gives you a mid-range reading and then spin the wheel. > > > Sounds to me like a ground wire got left off the left side. I didn't >think the controller was split right/left but I guess it could be. > >Sounds like your toy is coming along nicely.....maybe we'll get over >there to see it some day! > >Mick >_____________________________________________________________ >'93 K1100LT..Quick Trips! BOOF #78 K11LT_MickNoSpam@NoSpamVnet.IBM.Com >'96 R1100RT.....Twisties! MOA#57053 RA#20083 bmwmickNoSpam@NoSpamazstarnet.com >Tucson, AZ / Simi Valley, CA http://www.azstarnet.com/~bmwmick/mick.htm From Richard Bernecker Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:00:19 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: [K-TECH] Floating brake rotors At 08:51 AM 9/10/97 EDT, Tom Coradeschi wrote: > >Buddy of mine has a 93 K11LT, with something like 70k miles on it. He has >noticed that there appears to be quite a bit of slop (for lack of a better >word) in how one of the front brake rotors mounts to its carrier. There >appear to be some small, cylindrical bushings, which mate the rotor to the >carrier, and which are retained with circlips. > >What's really puzzling about all this is that the right side rotor displays >much more freeplay than the left side. I'd guess that the tangential >movement may be over 1/8" (probably more like 3/16") at the OD of the rotor. > >Question(s): Which is more likely to have worn, the rotor or the bushings? >Does this appear to be a safety issue (I don't think so)? These are floating rotors, and are designed to have some axial play across the mounting bushings to reduce warping caused by uneven heat transfer between the carrier and rotor. Also, if the rotor does warp, it tends to do so "more evenly" across it's width, since the carrier is not holding the inner edge fixed. This design allows a rotor to warp a bit without being really obnoxious about it, and to "self-heal" as the metal rotors are heat- cycled, since the carrier is not introducing any outside stresses into the rotor.... The bushings are the wear point here - they are designed to wear. BMW will sell your buddy a new set of bushings, wave washers, and circlips (fairly cheaply in fact) with which to re-shim the rotors. Altho it's not necessarily dangerous to ride around with lots of axial play on the bushings, it does make the rotor rattle a lot and severely worn bushings *can* fail. Replace the bushings. And while he's at it, flush the brake system, and cycle the caliper pistons by hand (remove brake pads and lower the fluid level in the reservoir FIRST) to ensure that the right caliper piston's aren't hanging a bit and heating the right side rotor more than the left. :-) ======================================================= Richard "VI,CE" Bernecker SoD #1, BOOF #84, NOT #7 Elizabeth City, NC, USoA rbernieNoSpam@NoSpamecsu.campus.mci.net "What's the use of having luck if you don't use it?" ======================================================= From "Terence R. Evans, M.D." Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:28:37 +0000 Subject: BMW: Re: What to do about worn discs? At 11:35 AM 9/10/97 +0000, you wrote: >Nick asks: >The front discs on my R11GS have worn down to a thickness of 4.4 mm - >BMW say you should change them at 4.5 mm or they may crack. Can anyone >advise me here? Is the BMW advice over-cautious or about right? And does >anyone have any experience, good or bad, with pattern parts? Lentini: >==== >This is a pretty conservative limit, Nick. They won't crack and should >work just fine as long as the wear is even and there is no pulsing. My >K75S's front rotors were below the limit and performed great. Press on. >Eventually just replace them with good used rotors. The Once Per Quarter >>>>>>>>>> T-Mia Tech Time! ---------------- I agree with Rob on the over-cautious conservative BMW limit. Let me add my experience: I started getting front-end rapid hop (severe pulsing) on hard braking. I was told when I had in the 30-40K range of my K-LT that *all* rotors were below BMW spec. limits. I was still in warranty but the then '3 yr unlimited miles' excluded 'wear items' like brake disks. The dealer then did a minor adjustment to my front calipers (with a large mallet) which made most of the pulsing go away except for under very hard braking. I ignored and basically forgot about the below-spec reak disk. I lived with them another 20K miles and then finally had a 're-surfaced exchange' done to my fronts at around 60K miles. I've had no problems nor have I even had them mic'd in 46K miles since (now have 106Kmiles). I can't imagine stopping any faster short of hitting a stationary object. NOW, and I haven't thought of this until your question, Nick - but I've had two experiences of complete rear brake failure secondary to over-heating. First, was some steep, slow, twisty down hill following a Flag Vehicle in the Sierra Nevadas in July'95. Second, was last year heading to Deal's Gap on Rt 129 hotfooting it two-up and *thinking* I was braking correctly. Both times took about 1/2 hour rest for the rear brake to come back. Both times I had good meat on my prefered DunlopPads. I can only attribute the failure to too much rt. foot/rear brake usage and the fact that my rear disk would be more 'below-spec' since the original diagnosis hence more prone to overheating to the point of overheating the brake fluid to the point of virtual rear brake dissappearance.. I easily got out of the habit of using my rear brake too much - after last year's Finger Lakes Rally or 200 miles from the nearest dealer - I heard that unforgettable metal-to-metal sound of GONE pads. So for the next 200 or so miles, I made a conscious effort to NOT use my rear brake at all. I'm basically still in that habit. The Long and The Short of it: - ---------------------------- With the BMW conservative limits that make one prone fairly early to below-spec disks - while most LIKELY that is not a problem but it increases your likelyhood (IMO) for increased heat related failures: either disk warppage +/or temprorary brake failure. Going to garage now to Mic, er, um, Caliper (cheap plastic) my rear rotor now for the first time in 3 years and over 50K miles! =8-O... ... I'm back - no can do - I only have a 'flat' caliper - thought I had a 'pinch' one - I'd get false readings from the outter edge and would probably read within nornal limits because the pad doesn't touch the disk until approx 4mm in. Yet another thing to add to my mental list when I go to the dealer... YMMtruelyV, __________T_E_R_R_Y_____M_i_a_m_i____ if AT&T bounces you, forward to alt. add.: tevansmdNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com From ken dibnah Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:30:11 -0700 Subject: BMW: Re: Neverseize etc. > Saw your instructions about neverseize. Is this going on the piston ? > Neverseize usually is for bolts (wheel bolts) that you want to be sure will > come off after lots of use in a nasty (rusty) environment. This isn't > usually used on brake pistons. Why do you use it here ? Looking for > information. I use the Neverseize to help stop brake squeal. It does not melt with the heat of the brakes and it sticks like (cat) shit to a blanket. If you are careful to NOT get it anywhere except on the back of the pads, it works great. I learned this trick from a Volvo mechanic and he slopped it on locating pins and floating caliper mounts too. I don't think there is any where else to put it on scoot brakes though. If you are uncomfortable putting grease on your brakes, one of the cage brake pad makers (I put them on my Volvo but have forgotten the brand name) includes a tube of blue spooge that sets up after it is applied to the back of the pads - it is supposed to do the same thing that the N.S. does. The N.S. is still there when I redo my Volvo and K100 pads when they have worn out, and it is still gooey. YMMV. Ken Dibnah black, gooey and still forkless (another story) K100RS From EsquireTedNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BMW: Opinions on ABS and other tech inovations requested >Which technological developments work and are considered worth having? In >particular, is ABS something I should pay a $1300 premium for? Jeff, Many will weigh back and forth over this issue, citing the danger of ABS on the track, the fact that extremely skilled riders can allegedly outbrake ABS, etc. It all comes down to one simple thing: The first time a big creature of the night, or perhaps a mini-van, hops out in front of you without notice, and in full pucker you go into full braking mode, and the bike silently and under complete control comes to an abrupt halt, you'll be glad you spent the extra $1,300. I am not a super-skilled rider that can outbrake ABS, I have never ridden on a track, and I have gone into full ABS activation twice now since owning my K1100RS. I personally consider it money quite well spent (sort of like my Aerostich & the Wee-Willy.) ~~~~~~~~~ http://users.aol.com/esquireted/moto.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ted Verrill - EsquireTedNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com - TedVNoSpam@NoSpamFool.com - K1100RS (Zephyr) Georgetown, Washington DC, USA - HOYA JD '94 - Joe's Toadies IBMWR - BMWBMW - BMWMOA - BMWRA - GG#3 - SoD#7 BMWBMW Newsletter Editor, "Between The Spokes" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visit http://www.bmwbmw.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Craig Vechorik Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:56:41 Subject: Re: BMW: /5 is an accident waiting to happen??? Mike: At 08:12 AM 9/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Michael Lipke >> To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com >> Subject: /5 is an accident waiting to happen??? >> Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 10:01 PM >> >> While picking up a gasket at a BMW dealer in Chicago, I saw a '85 >> R100 RT on the floor. Commented to the dealer that it was a nice >looking >> bike. He told me that I should trade in my /5 on a newer bike such as >the >> R100 RT, because the /5 was an "accident waiting to happen" due to the >drum >> brakes and the way they handle. >> >> He was serious. I don't believe everything I hear, and I know his job is >> to sell bikes, but he got me to thinking. Do others have opinions >similar >> to his. Should I be concerned?? Think about it this way. True, drum brakes are not as effective, but BMW drum brakes are about the most effective m/c drum there is. effective enough to ride. Somtimes /5's will develop a "grabby" front brake, in the morning, on the first stop, generally from being parked outside, at night, and developing surface rust on the drum surface from the humidity. But, an accident waiting to happen? Considering the age of your /5, it sure has waited a long time, hasn't it? If it is/was so dangerous, how come it has that many miles, that many owners, and it's not wrecked? Just luck? Some for sure, but that is true of any motorcycle that survives 10 years or more. Nah........ He just wants to sell you something new, IMHO. Craig Vechorik From Dana Priesing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BMW: ABS & Pavement Ripples (Was Opinions on ABS &c.) Prez Gary sez: >I'm glad ABS has come through for when you needed it. For me, however, >the ABS on my K has nearly caused an accident on three separate >occasions, all involving braking on rough (pavement ripples) areas of >pavement. > >The scenario goes: I'm cruising along behind a car that stops sooner >than I expect. I apply the brakes with plenty of room to stop, but to >my surprise, there's rippled pavement ahead (or some other rough >surface). When the front wheel hits the ripples it gets launched into >the air. While in the air, there's no longer a rotational force >applied to the wheel so it locks since the brakes are still applied. >However, the ABS computer still senses motion so it activates the ABS >and releases the brake and the wheel is allowed to roll forward again >as it lands back on the ground. This sequence is repeated until either >the wheel has cleared the ripples or the bike slows enough to stop. >The problem with all this is that the distance required to stop is >greatly increased and, on 3 separate occasions, has almost caused me to >slam into the car in front of me. > >I still have mixed feelings about ABS and sometimes wish I could just >turn it off. This has happened to me too. My K11RS's ABSII sometimes cuts in a bit quick for my taste, typically on rippled pavement coming to a stop. My KLT's ABSI never did that. I've found that it's a bit less aggravating now that I've got 10 wt. oil in the forks. The front end doesn't get to bobbing when the ABSII cuts in. Dana Priesing Arlington VA 94 K11RS From Don Eilenberger Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:35:50 -0400 Subject: BMW: RE: 1985 K100rs rear brake plastic resovoir >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:18:41 -0400 >From: "aaronNoSpam@NoSpamrocketship.com" >Subject: BMW: Re: 1985 K100rs rear brake plastic resovoir > >I recently replaced mine and I thought the price was considerably less-like >between 15-25$ (not sure) at white plains bmw. >This was for the externally visable one. >I might have upgraded to the newer style which rides under the side >cover-higher up, and hence wont disintegrate over time from UV exposure. >This requires additionally a new , longer hose and some type of clip that >the resevoir attaches to. Someone on the list said there was a kit but the >parts peson didn't know. >I did it without bleeding the system. just refill the system. >A >87K75S > >- ---------- >From: Peter Krynicki >To: bmwmc >Subject: BMW: 1985 K100rs rear brake plastic resovoir >Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 2:13 PM > > >Mine is deteriorating badly and I want to order one. Capital has one >for sale (I think it's what I need) for $49.00. Can this be right for a >little plastic container and a screw cap. And can I replace it so that I >don't have to bleed the brakes? > >Tia >Pjk Peter and Aaron.. The external one is fine - if you keep an eye on it, and the bike isn't parked outside all the time. The plastic used is apparently bio-degradable (BMW in the forefront AGAIN!) and breaks down under exposure of UV (ie - sunlight). It has the advantage of being instantly viewable to check your brake fluid level, which the other one doesn't have. Your current one has lasted about 12-13 years - so I'd guess an external replacement one would prolly last just as long.. If you do park outside a lot - you may want to consider the one that mounts to the under the sidecover. In both cases - you can use a standard 5/16" hose clamp in place of the crimp-once clamp BMW used. The hose is not under pressure, the clamp is there to keep it in place. The hose used IS brake hose (resistant to brake fluid). Don't cheap on this - use the right stuff! NOW - ON SOAPBOX BIGTIME! ==================================================================== BLEED THE BRAKES (Aaron - the yelling is for YOU!)... we don't wanna hear about you piling into something 'cause your back brake suddenly wasn't.. while it is vaguely possible that you could do this job without doing the bleeding - it is a trival procedure and costs next to nothing. You will feel better having done it.. To do it (elementary K100 rear brake bleeding) 1. Remove right side bag (hardest part of the job).. 2. Locate some 3/16" Inside Diameter clear tubing (fish-tank tubing works fine..) mebbe 12-18" long 3. Locate your 11mm wrench (an open end will work, but I much prefer a box wrench for this job) 4. Locate 1 empty beer bottle or can (your preference) 5. Remove rubber cap from the bleed nipple (it's fairly obvious which thingie the bleed nipple is since it's the only thingie on the brake caliper with a rubber cap on it..). 6. Attach one end of the tubing to the now exposed nipple.. 7. Open the reservior cap (or if you just installed it, ignore this step). Remove the rubber sealing bladder from it.. 8. Fill reservior to within about 1/4" of the top.. 9. Put 11mm wrench on the bleed nipple (if you're using the box wrench, slide it down the tubing if it will fit - otherwise take the tubing off, put wrench on in a position where you can turn it 90 degrees anti-clockwise.. then replace tubing) 10. Put other end of tubing into beer bottle/can.. 11. Turn wrench 90 degrees anticlockwise. Press brake pedal with your right hand down until it stops. Hold it there. 12. Tighten nipple until it just tightens up a bit.. 13. Repeat 11 and 12 until you see clear fluid running through the hose into your ex-beer receptical. 14. As the fluid in the reservior goes down - refill it. 15. Once clear fluid (no green munge, no air-bubbles) is seen.. you're done. Tighten nipple. DO NOT USE EXCESSIVE FORCE - they are easy to break (not brake!) 'cause they're hollow and a PITA to get out once you break them.. 16. Replace rubber bladder on reservior and reservior cap. Remove tubing and wrench from the nipple. Replace the cap on the nipple. 17. Find another beer - and empty the container. Pat yourself on the back - you've just bled your rear brake. To do the front - same process - just two nipples and you use the brake lever instead'a the pedal. Do one caliper at a time.. order doesn't matter since they are the same distance from the reservior. ==================================================================== Off soapbox.. Best (and bleed the damn brakes!).. ======================================= Don Eilenberger Spring Lk Hts, NJ, USA deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ======================================= From Paul or Voni Glaves Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:47:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: BMW: /5 Brakes, etc >I have zero problems stopping my /5 at any speed. >Granted it doesn't go much faster than 90mph. >Sure drums are not as quick as disks but when I need to >stop I do. > A properly maintained and adjusted /5 drum front brake has more stopping power than a stock /6 single disk. The /5 drum brakes have 2 major problems. First, since they almost never wear the lining material out - most /5's are running around with 25 year old brake lining material. It hardens and loses efficiency over time. Unused 25 year old brake linings are much weaker than when new. If I had a /5 as a regular rider it would have new lining material installed. Second, a smooth linear feel and good feedback from the brake to the riders hand on the lever is better on a hydraulic disk brake than a cable operated drum brake. For some people the lever distance is awkward too. But, with good linings and a little experience that /5 drum will stop quickly, up to and including locking the front wheel - even with today's tires. A stock single disk setup on a /6, R80, GS etc, usually won't do that. Paul Glaves Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:00:27 -0700 From: Ernie Subject: BMW: RE: Complexity, Reliability, and ABS >>>> John Wrote; I have been intrigued by all the discussions regarding ABS and whether this is a worthwhile addition to a motorcycle. I am of the opinion that this is POTENTIALLY one of the few truly important design improvements made to motorcycle safety. I would like to see our collective thoughts regarding the current state of BMW ABS technology. To this end please consider and comment on the following: 1) What is the difference between ABS and ABSII? 2) How reliable have the two designs been? 3) Has anyone had any major repair bills? How much? With respect to ABS operation does the design allow one to apply full brake force while cornering? I suspect that the near lockups under ABS would be much like hitting some loose stuff in a corner. If you are lucky you have a momentary scare; unlucky and you have a spill. >>>> I've seen this subject a dozen times and figured I would throw in my four-bit's worth. The following is what I've experienced and learned about my 1996 K1100LT with the ABS II system. When you first start your bike, both ABS lights are flashing together. As you start rolling, the ABS monitor causes the servos to cycle one at a time, that's why one hears two clunks. It's checking to see if they are functioning properly. Every 15 minutes or so, it will recheck the servos, but is smart enough to wait until you have come to a stop and then checks again when you start rolling. When the outside temperature is down below 25 degrees, mine won't cycle until I've used the brakes a few times to warm up the fluid. The monitors' main function is to operate (cycle) the ABS servos whenever it sees that one wheel is rotating at a different speed then the other when you have applied either one or both front and rear brakes. If it cannot stop the rotational difference, it shuts off the ABS system. The assumption is made that the servos have failed and need to be serviced. The system considers this a major fault, not a minor one like a low battery. At this point your ABS lights are flashing alternately and whenever you start the bike they will not reset. To stop the flashing you can push the ABS switch which leaves one light on steadily, but that only last for about 15 minutes at a time and the fault is still there, just no flashing lights. To prevent the resetting of a failed system, the failure is logged into the monitors memory. On some bikes you can reset the memory by simply disconnecting the battery or unplugging the monitor's main connecter for a few minutes to clear the system. But, if that little dime sized backup battery in the monitor's CPU is in good condition, that few minutes could be a lot longer. I've had LapTops hold its setup memory for over a year and a half with its main battery out. The diagnostic equipment the dealers have well clear the fault reading. The dealers I've been to were able to clear it in about 10 to 15 minutes shop time. The problem with the system is that it can register a failure through no fault of the servos. As when you low side the bike and one wheel is spinning freely and you have the brake applied to the other one. (BTDT) Can also happen if you pull a wheel-ie and touch the front brake before coming down. (BTDT) If your braking while drifting through a corner and losing rear traction, it can cause a fault. (BTDT) And even going through an AAA speedo checking station, as you need to hold the front brake while your driving the rear wheel and speedometer. (BTDT) The last dealer suggested that I shut off and restart the bike after it's been ridden onto the rollers, then push the ABS switch to shut off the flashing lights before proceeding with the speedo check. (Have not tried it) The one thing I don't understand is why did it take me four trips, to as many dealers, to drag the information out of them on how the system works. Two of the faults could have been prevented if someone had explained the system to me the first time it happened. Of course my standard disclaimer applies to all of the above information, " http://www.ptw.com/~oth/disclaim.html " Ernie Hansen Lancaster, CA othNoSpam@NoSpamptw.com From Steve Aikens Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:29:45 -0600 Subject: Re: BMW: R1100RT ABS Keith Stowers wrote: .......... I used to have occasional faults show up on my '95 R11RS ABS. Now on my '97 R11RT I developed a fault NoSpam@NoSpam 35 miles!! Thought I would ride the bike from my home in TX to Denver and get the 600 mile service and ABS checked. Service manager said that they couldn't get the fault to show back up after they reset it. (You have to have a computer to do it.) Left Denver and got 100 miles before it did it again. I have been told that a low battery or spinning the rear wheel can cause this. Neither was the case here. What gives? Keith Stowers ......... Keith, I suggest you have the gap between the sensors and the rotors checked. If everything else is as it should be, i.e., battery is up, no wheel spin, and no debris on the rotors (one tick mark with mud in it will send ABS off), the only things left are the gaps or the ABS computer is sick and will need replaceing. As to the ABS needing a computer to reset it: this is incorrect. Removing fuse number 5 will clear all faults. Simply remove the fuse, wait a couple minutes, replace the fuse. The faults are stored in RAM. Removing fuse 5 disconnects power to the chips and they get stupid again. Good luck. - -- I don't suffer from insanity.....I enjoy every minute of it! Steve Aikens, Clovis, New Mexico steve.aikensNoSpam@NoSpam3lefties.com My BMW URL is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4323/ Don't drop by very often, it never changes. From John Milne <106414.1442NoSpam@NoSpamcompuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:33:55 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: Complexity, Reliability, and ABS John Briggs wrote >> I would like to see our collective thoughts regarding the current state of BMW ABS technolog= y. To this end please consider and comment on the following: 1) What is the difference between ABS and ABSII? 2) How reliable have the two designs been? 3) Has anyone had any major repair bills? How much? << There were loads of problems with controllers on ABS i. I don't know abou= t ABS II. I've had the ABS controller go down on both a K100RS and a K1100R= S. The first time it happened BMW's attitude was, well it had done 30000, wh= at do you expect? It cost me about =A3800. That's sterling and represents ab= out $1200US. A year ago I had the same problem with my 93 K1100RS. This time the dealer managed to make BMW UK see sense and replace the unit on a goodwill basis - it was out of warranty. Both times the problem occured i= n a similar way, where the battery would get to a low state of charge and then when it was recharged (once by me, once by the dealer) the ABS controller would refuse to software reset and clear the fault it was reporting. Nowadays if I do any electrical work to the bike I disconnect the ABS controller first and reconnect it last. I've never had an ABS controller problem since. As for the utility of ABS on the bike, it's nil. ABS allows you to steer the bike while braking hard. That's all, no magic. But modern brakes are easily up to stopping the bike. If you have overcooked it so badly you reckon you need to steer and brake that hard the ABS won't bail you out. = So what's it for? I dunno. I know I've bought my last ABS bike. John Milne From TBLACKNoSpam@NoSpamcc.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:24:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: BMW: K100 Brake Upgrade Joe and Jon question whether the later 4 pot calipers will fit on the K100. Since I've done it I'll reply. The bolt spacing is the same, however the offset is quite a bit different. I machined the mounting tabs on the calipers to center them on the discs. Brake lines connect with no changes. So it's possible, but is it better? To my mind NO. Don't spend the money on this mod. The brake modulation feel is somewhat improved but lever travel and sponginess are worse. One problem is that the newer bikes use a thicker disc so the pads have to move further to contact the disc. This makes the longer travel problem. Next the ratio of cylinder sizes (master cylinder to caliper) is changed due to the greater volume of the new calipers. This adds a degree of lever sponginess I have not been able to get out as yet. I'm still working on it. If I can get rid of the spongy lever I'll keep these calipers on, otherwise I'll probably return to stock. Ciao Tony Tony Black tblackNoSpam@NoSpamcc.colorado.edu Colorado Springs K100RT R75/6 Honda CBX Yamaha RZ350 K1200RS (on order) TBLACKNoSpam@NoSpamcc.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:17:46 -0500 From: Cal Swallow Subject: Re: BMW: bmw disc thickness and squeaky brakes At 08:22 P 9/26/97 +1000, you wrote: > >Hi I am a beamer rider K100LT from Melbourne Australia and am having >trouble with sqeaky brakes both front and back. >There is plenty of meat on the pads but the discs are a little worn. >How can I tell when to change the discs and is there a way to eliminate >squeaks. RE the squeak. Try de glazing the pads: 1. Remove pads 2. Place #80 grit (finer will EVENTUALLY work) sandpaper on a flat surface. (you can use a file) 3. Place brake pad onto sandpaper. 4. Hold sandpaper still and move pad in circular motion. I use "moderate" pressure. 5. Keep this up until the surface layer of the pad is "roughed up". Use fresh sandpaper as needed. 6. Clean pads with brake parts cleaner. Clean disc with same. 7. Reassemble. Keep your greasy paws off the friction surfaces!!!! What you are trying to do is to remove enough pad material (along with the contaminants) to get down into fresh friction media. Most pads will look quite different once they are de glazed. Usually the freshly exposed material is a lighter color than what you removed. I have found that this fix lasts for several thousand miles. (depends on environmental conditions such as rain and dust) Lots of in-town, slow riding seems to accelerate the glazing and squeaking. I tried Dunlopads. Much improved. I had no luck with the anti-squeak spooge for the backs of the pads. >In addition, my screen is so scratched and etched I can't see anything >clearly. What do I do polish it, buff it or get another one. Buy a new one and spend your time riding. It is extremely difficult to polish clear plastic and have a satisfactory result. It can end up distorted and may drive you crazy at night when oncoming lights are picked up by all the minute polishing marks. Then, in the future, make sure you only clean the shield with a sponge or soft cloth using lots of running water and mild soap. NEVER: Use gas station squeegee. Good luck. >Thanks in advance for any assistance. >Graham Dodd > "You know you are brave if you eat organically grown fruit in the dark". CS '97 Cal Swallow NOTICE: Due to inflation, my $.02 worth is now Quincy, IL now going for $.03. BMWMOA # 65821 1985 K100 LT Grey Primer (don't ask) 1994 R1100 RSL (so I'm fickle) Turkisgrun Met. (fastest color) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:37:01 +0100 From: Nick Horley Subject: BMW: My ABS opinions (rather long) John Briggs wrote: > 1) What is the difference between ABS and ABSII? ABS works by letting the wheel lock, then unlocking it. Keep the brakes on, and the process is repeated indefinitely. Use it in the dry and you'll leave a dotted line of rubber on the road. In the wet it's crude enough for you to lose control of the front end. ABS II locks the wheel once, and then, however hard you continue to apply the brake, uses the data gathered to release brake pressure just before the wheel locks again. Hence it's safer, gives shorter stopping distances, and is less disconcerting in use. I've used it to stop from 70 in a meadow with foot high wet grass - the bike stopped very smoothly, and very rapidly. And it's saved me from T-boning cars which pulled out without warning. BUT you have to learn a new braking technique to get the best out of it. After the initial lock-up, you need to increase lever pressure, and overcome your instinct to reduce it. This is explained in the manual, which I'll bet a lot of the critics of ABS never bother to read! Unfortunately the system is confused by bumpy surfaces and releases brake pressure a bit too early - which can be very alarming at poorly surfaced junctions! But keep piling on the lever pressure and the situation resolved itself. > 2) How reliable have the two designs been? I had no probs with the ABS on my K100LT. On my R1100GS I knocked out the ABS II computer in a low speed crash on the left side - the impact buggered the electronics. My friendly service manager replaced it under warranty. Pity he got fired! > With respect to ABS operation does the design allow one to apply full brake force while cornering? No. If the momentary initial lock-up occurs while you're leaned over, you can go down as per usual. The manual tells you not to rely on the ABS in corners. It's true that some riders can achieve shorter stopping distances without ABS than with it. But that's only under ideal conditions. In emergencies on the road even track aces tend to panic and lock the wheels up, especially in the wet. That's when ABSII saves your life, which is what BMW intended it for. It's also true that ABSII renders the brakes spongey, increases lever travel and requires additional effort from the rider, requiring all four fingers for hard braking and often preventing those with average size hands from covering the front brake lever with two fingers. All these things increase stopping distance. I've fitted Harrison 6 piston calipers to my R11GS, curing all these problems. I now have the best of both worlds: the lever travel and effort/retardation ratio of a Jap sports bike, but with ABS. I'm a happy man, and I wish I'd done it when I bought the bike three years ago! I also think BMW should have done something similar as standard: given the drawbacks of ABS, the bikes with it need better calipers than the bikes without, and it's shortsighted to put the same Brembos on everything. I confess that now I have the Harrisons I use the ABS more and more as a performance aid - i.e. to outbrake sports bikes. Even before I got the Harrisons I used it to speed through radar camera zones (I just jump on the brakes as I pass the camera), and to ride harder and cut things closer. "Emergency" stops have become fairly routine. OK, it's irresponsible and it wears the front tyre out, but in the process I've learned more about hard braking, become more confident and less inclined to panic in a real emergency. Which is another benefit of ABS for EVERYBODY - you can practise your emergency stops without risking an accident - so long as you check your mirrors! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 20:44:00 PDT From: "Sobczyk, Joe" Subject: RE: BMW: Leaking master cylinder Nick asks:- >The front master cylinder on my 16V K100RS has developed the >dreaded leak which has gone from just noticeable to very drippy >in just a couple of weeks. > >If I recall from previous mails to the list, there is no repair kit available >for the thing and replacement of the entire unit is required. Is this still >true? > Not true. You can buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder. Make sure you also get the rubber O-ring that fits in the bottom of the reservoir. Now, trying to find a 13mm hone is another question..... Joe Sobczyk Washington DC 81 R65 85 K100RS SobczykNoSpam@NoSpamWashpost.com The opinions are my own, etc. Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:11:29 +0900 From: douholmesNoSpam@NoSpamjuno.com (Douglas W Holmes) Subject: Re: BMW: Leaking master cylinder Nick, I have a 16V K100RS that needed a new master cylinder this past spring. It is true that there are no rebuild kits available for this. When you get a new master cylinder assembly, you do not get the complete right hand assembly with a new lever. Some parts have to be taken off your old one. I have added an adjustable brake lever to my bike. It is an expensive item at about $75 US. The part number is 32 72 2 314 072. The grub screw that pushes into the master cylinder has to be transfered from your old lever. Care must be taken to be sure that the screw is adjusted correctly. Use a thread locking compound. A warning/disclaimer paper is included with the new lever warning of this. Hope this helps. Ride safe, Doug Holmes Minneapolis, Mn '91 K100RS 16V Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:23:51 -0400 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: Rear Brake Disk on K75RT IFR10 asks: >Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:35:24 -0400 (EDT) >From: IFR10NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com >Subject: BMW: Rear Brake Disk on K75RT > >I have an out of round rear brake disk on my 1992 K75RT with ABS (19K). I am >not interested in removing rivets as one posting suggests (good idea, I am >too scared to try it). It costs a whopping $330.00 (plus tax) to replace >this marvel of German engineering. I believe they are stainless steel so... > >1. Can these be turned by a machine shop? Mebbe.. if you can find one who will do it, and in doing it will end up with a thick enough disk (seem to remember 0.170" min/thickness) when they get the wobble out (assuming you're getting pulsing in the pedal?) >2. Must they be surfaced in order for the new pads to seat? No. Butt it will take a bit of time for new pads to conform to the existing disk surface. >3. Any other ideas. I'd suggest a new rotor. In all probability - the rotor carrier was bent by an incompetent tire changing - someone laid the wheel down on the disk and then exerted some pressure. It would be hard for me to imagine USING the rear disk enough to get it hot enough to warp it.. (Paul Glaves or Jon Diaz commented at Fontana that 90% of warped disks are caused by tire changes!).. The problems in getting it turned will be: 1. Finding a shop with a machine to do it 2. Having this shop willing to accept the legal consequences of doing it 3. Ending up with enough disk material when they get done.. if it's too thin, it WILL warp from heat related use. Alternatives: 1. Replacement rotor from BMW - $$$ is the downside, butt you know it's gonna work/fit correctly. 2. "Braking" rotor - a floater, but given that you prolly have a warped carrier - this would have to be trued up before installing the new rotor - gotta have a lathe and know what you're doing to do this (I have a BRAKING rotor on the rear of my K100RT - my old disk was at the wear limit - not warped.) This does require drilling out the rivits - which is NOT a big deal, butt easier done with a drill press.. would seem a good machine shop could do it for you in about 20 minutes. 3. Used rotor - the rear is a good candidate for used - it isn't pressed into service much, in a frontal crash it's unlikely to be damaged. I'd call Eurotech or Bob'sBMW and see what they've got. I got a used one fro Eurotech when I did the BRAKING rotor 'cause I didn't want to destroy my current rotor - it was still fine, 'cept at the wear limit. The disk Chris sent me looked fine - was $25 + shipping if I remember right. Dunno if the one with the ABS ring is more $$$ - prolly.. HTH! Don PSSSS... who are you? IFR10 really doesn't tell us much.. (Instrument Flight Rated #10?) ================================== Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ================================== Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:10:38 -0700 From: Mark Gensman Subject: Re: BMW: ABS brain failure Kim wrote: > > I have a 1993 K1100LT that at 42,000 miles has just gone through it's > second ABS I ECU which by the way cost $975. The first time was at 24K and > the last time was at 42K. I have an extended warranty and the company > paid, but they're not happy that they've paid out $2500 and I have only > paid $300. For once an extended warranty has actually paid for itself. > > The reason I'm writing this is because my dealer called BMW NA to see if > they had any advice for the ABS failures. BMW NA asked my dealer if I had > a radar detector wired into the bike. I do and they said get rid of it > because it is causing the failures of the ABS. The tech explained that > when the detector is receiving radar signals from the police the radar > dectector it emits lots of RF noise that can blow the ABS' brains out. The > tech also mentioned that one beemer rider had 5 ABS failures in six months > and was going to have BMW buy the bike back. When the detector was > eliminated from the bike all was well. The tech also said it made no > difference what model or type of ABS was on the bike. I guess I'll be > buying a Bell 945im using AA batteries and won't be using my Valentine-one > except in my car. It obviously doesn't effect all BMW's because I know of > many beemer riders that use Valentines or other 12v detectors with no > problems. The tech rep also mentioned that all police K75 bikes have > massive shielding and grounding straps on the ABS unit to protect it from > police radios and other electrical gear. > > I hope that my experiences can help another president if they too are > having premature ABS failures or would like to avoid potential future > failures. > > Good riding and have a non skid future. > > Kim Rydalch > Modesto, CA I am simply going to state a purely personal opinion. I do not believe a Valentine puts out enough RF to affect anything. If the ABS units were that sensitive they would fail everytime you rode past a train engine. The police bikes have radar TRANSMITTERS and radio TRANSMITTERS and sirens and lights etc that require extra sheilding. I think you are getting bad advice. And you got bad ABS units. - -- Mark Gensman MgensmanNoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com 95 K1100LT "You're never too old to rock and roll" K-Whiner #51 "The Green Hornet" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:46:16 +1000 (EST) From: Richard Paton Subject: BMW: Re: TECH: ABS-I: Reset fault update On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 K1drbarNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com wrote: > > Well, I've now tried disconnecting the battery for over 1/2 hour ... the ABS > control unit must have some sort of non volatile storage inside. It looks > like the only option for resetting the fault code is to go to the dealer to > have the codes read out ... If you do *not* need to reset the ABS, follow the instructions below to save yourself much moolah later on. 1. Save this email 2. Add a 20cm piece of wire, stripped at both ends, to your tool kit. If you do not know whether you need to reset: 1. Stop. 2. Turn off ignition. 3. Turn on ignition. If both ABS lights flash together, you are OK. If the lights flash alternately, you need to reset your ABS. 4. If, having reset your ABS, the lights still flash alternately, you need to see your dealer. If you *do* need to reset the ABS, follow the instructions below: 1. Remove rider and pillion seats. Turn ignition off. 2. Locate wire that runs under the rider's seat up the middle of the rear mudguard, looking like it is going to disappear under the tool kit. 3. Pull said bit of wire out from under toolkit. Exclaim "Well, I'll be buggered" when you see that the 'plug' it plugs into is merely a blank. 4. Unplug blank. 5. Insert one end of 20cm wire into the *middle* socket hole of the above wire. 6. Ground the other end firmly to a metal bolt in the area (and keep grounded). 7. Turn on ignition. Note that the two ABS lights flash alternately. 8. Hold ABS button down for 8 seconds. The bottom ABS light will stay on, and the top one off. 9. Release the ABS button. If you have successfully reset the ABS, both ABS lights will come on. If you have failed to count to 8, or your ground is not good, the top ABS light will stay off. 10. Turn ignition off, put wire back in your tool kit, reconnect and stow blanking plug, and send cheque for half what your dealer would have charged you for this service to a charity of your choice (preferably me). Cheers Richard Paton '96 R1100GS "red bike" '74 R90/6 "black bike" '82 Holden Gemini "Broken car" '91 Holden Commodore "Mummy's car" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:05:07 -0400 From: "Scott C. Adams" Subject: Re: BMW: Re: TECH: ABS-I: Reset fault update Bob Stoll wrote: > You are correct, the ABS has a non-volatile memory. One resets the > ABS by > connecting the BMW special tester to the three-pin diagnostic > connector > behind the right side cover. From what I understand, all the BMW > tester > does (to do the reset, anyway) is to short one of those three pins to > ground > while the operator cycles the ignition switch. I wanted to try this > on my > own bike when the ABS controller went but I didn't know the exact > sequence. > Anybody happen to have a BMW service manual around? ;-) > Having spent HOURS with the darn thing when I was having an intermittent problem, I seem to recall the procedure as: Connect Reset Tool (Computer) Turn On Bike Ignition (dont need to start bike) Read Fault Code (always rear brake sensor in my case - bad connector) Push and Hold Button on Reset Tool (Computer) ** While Holding Button on Tool (Computer) Hold Down ABS Switch on Dashpod for 5(10?) Sec's. Reset Complete. ** Am going to guess that this is what drags the pins to ground, but there is nothing in any of the manuals that says this. I looked. Now, in my case it was ride ______ (fill in blank with 5 minutes to 500 hundred miles) and fault will re-appear. Go back to dealer and start over again. It was only after I found the loose connector and tightened the pins by bending them slightly that the problem went away. - -Scott Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:31:00 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: RE: R65LS Brakes Chris asks in anger... >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:19:43 -0800 >From: "Chris Armstrong" >Subject: BMW: R65LS Brakes > >Help. Please. I am close to killing my R65LS in frustration with the >front brakes. > >About six months ago I noticed that the front brakes (twin brembo dual >piston fixed callipers) were dragging. Given the bike has 90,000 kms I >thought it was about time for some new calliper seals. I fitted these >easily and for a few days the brakes were great. Then however the dreag >reappeared. By now it was so bad that the wheel would actually be locked >by the brakes. > >I discovered that opening the bleed screw on each calliper would loosen >the pads and restore feel to the brake lever (before it was like rock!) > >I also tried to push the pistons back into thir cavities, but as I >pushed one piston, the opposite one would be pushed towards the disc! > >I then decided to re-build the master cylinder with a new piston kit. >Again, the task was easily accomplished, and the brakes were fine for a >week, but then they seized again. > >Getting thoroughly annoyed by this time, I decided the only other >component I hadn't attacked was the brake lines. I was sceptical about >this being the cause, as for the previous five years the brakes had been >great with no sponginess at the lever, but anyway...... > >So, I take the lines off, blow them throught with compressed air and >then reatted them and cleaned the whole system through with methalayted >spirits. New brake fluid was installed and the brakes felt great. For a >week. > >Bloody pile of German Crap!! > >Can someone please suggest what I can do now? I really don't want to >let it beat me. > >Chris A. Not a bloody pile of German Crap - more like some better understanding of brake systems by the mechanic is needed. To fix your problem.. Remove your master cylinder after draining it carefully.. remove the new piston assembly you installed.. and look down in the bottom. There are two holes that feed the piston assembly. The one most towards the brake line is clogged.. prolly with crap from old fluid. Clear it out. Then flush the system with at least 1 pint of fluid.. and then do it again. The rear-most hole is only exposed when the piston is fully at rest, ie - no pressure on it. It's purpose is to relieve the pressure in the system. The system works by feeding fluid into the lines and pressurizing the calipers (pistons).. if there is no way to bleed back the pressure to the reservior - it will pressurize and ADD fluid to the working part of the system every time you use the brake.. eventually - there won't be any room for more - and you'll have the brakes locking on. Only other possibility is that your piston is not returning fully to rest when you're not on the brake. To test for correct operation - AFTER cleaning everything out and bleeding 2 pints of fluid through the system.. with the top off the reservior - pump the brake once. On release - you should see a little spurt in the area where the relief hole is.. if you don't it's still clogged OR your master cylinder piston isn't returning to the rest position. In this case - I'd say you should buy a NEW master cylinder. Also - "methalayted spirits" is probably not what you want to flush a brake system with. I only use brake fluid.. you don't know what the reaction of the various rubber components will be with what I'm assuming is methol-alcohol (methenol).. probably NOT good. It attacks and causes swelling with many rubber compounds. BTW - I believe Brembo brakes are Italian - so you've really gotta curse at yet another country. ======================================= Don Eilenberger Spring Lk Hts, NJ, USA deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ======================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:07:39 -0500 (EST) From: jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu (jim roche) Subject: BMW: Need Sticky Pads? GALFER greens! >From: wjacksonNoSpam@NoSpammail.island.net > >'Nother little question. I've got SBS pads on the R90S front brakes >on my R75/5. They're much better than OEM and other pads I've tried, >butt I would like to try something stickier. Does anyone know what >brand of pads are the softest, stickiest ones I can use on these >calipers? TIA >Wes Jackson Dear Wes, yes. GALFER greens. Nose stand material. Best, Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu high performance old twins http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jroche/index.html Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 16:35:22 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: My gawd.. winter is starting early this year! In the last digest: >The DOT's are NOT COMPATIBLE!!! I mixed them in my K100 by mistake and >got a horrible sludge which I had to drain/flush immediately. Please >read the labels before you mix - the container I used was from Harley, >offered by a friend who owns a Sportster. >The Clymer Manual has warnings also...Apparently the wrong fluid will >also swell up and destroy the seals. Go for it gang, prove me wrong! > >Ken Dibnah >K100RS PLEASE! The DOT4 vs DOT5 went around and around about 2 years ago.. and there was never a definative satisfactory conclusion.. can we please skip it and say "whatever floats YOUR boat!" and get back to Synth_air[tm]? Brake fluid is like oil, antifreeze, and tires.. it's a religious thing. Shouldn't be discussed in public. TIA Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:25:05 +0000 From: "drbob27" Subject: Re: BMW: Brake Fluid FAQ > I am willing to put together a FAQ section if people send to me their opinions or learned conclusions on brake fluid. > Brake fluid comes in a wide variety of choices. Some specifications have been set up for classes of brake fluids. The most relevant to car/motorcycle enthusiasts are DOT 4, the very different DOT 5, and "5.1", really an offshoot of 4 . DOT 4 is the general spec for most brake fluid. The most important measurable quality for a brake fluid is boiling point, although it doesn't completely determine quality. There are two minimum boiling points specified in DOT 4. One is "dry" or as new. The other is "wet" since DOT 4 brake fluids tend to attract and dissolve water. There are tradeoffs between these, and the fluids with the highest dry boiling points tend to have lower wet boiling points. Thus they are mostly beloved by racers who change fluid as often as every weekend. Ford truck brake fluid is a highly regarded DOT 4 fluid by many for more general use. Good boiling points, dependable quality/availability, inexpensive. DOT 5 is based on a completely different chemistry (silicone, rather than glycol). DOT 5 tends to be controversial with strong supporters and equally strong detractors. DOT 5 does not attract or dissolve water. While seemingly an attractive quality, some believe that, if water does condense in the system, this property will cause water drops to have worse effects than if the water was dispersed in DOT 4. This is very controversial. What is not controversial is: A. 5 is slightly more compressible and gives a slightly softer feel, particularly when hot. This is enough of an ultimate performance drawback that no serious racer uses 5. People differ on the importance of this factor in street driving/riding. B. 5 is slightly harder to bleed. C. 4 and 5 are incompatible and changeovers must be done carefully to avoid mixing the two. Many vintage car/motorcycle owners are strong proponents of 5, believing it to be less hazardous to rare and costly brake components. "5.1" [anybody know for sure if this is a DOT spec or not?] is a glycol based brake fluid with higher boiling point specifications than 4. The discussion for 4/5 is relevant to "5.1", remembering that "5.1" is really a variant of 4, _not_ 5. Have at me :-) bob Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:37:29 EST From: centaurNoSpam@NoSpamsfol.com Subject: BMW: K tech: Resetting ABS computer Hi Prezzes and Prezzettes! Someone asked a question a few days ago about their K bike's ABS system. Sorry I don't remember who it was. Since I haven't seen anyone answer yet with this info, I thought I'd jump in. Sometimes the computer on the ABS1 system will generate a fault message, causing the ABS lights to flash alternately, when there really is no problem with the system. However, until the fault message is erased, the ABS system won't function. Here's how to erase the fault message, without any special tools. 1. Find the ABS system diagnostic plug under the right side cover. 2. Connect the middle wire to ground. 3. Turn on the key. 4. Press the ABS dash button for at least 8 seconds 5. Release button, turn off key, remove ground wire The ABS system should now function normally. If it doesn't, then you really do have a fault which needs to be diagnosed, probably by a dealer, and corrected. I've used this procedure several times myself and it works. I learned it right here on this list, so am delighted to pass it along to anyone else who needs it. BTW, I just returned to my computer after spending some weeks on my sailboat. The first thing I did when I got home was resubscribe to this list. The second thing was to dust off my K bike and go for a ride. Maybe this week I'll get around to returning to work. Do I have my priorities right or what? Richard Meltz centaurNoSpam@NoSpamsfol.com Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:34:42 -0500 (EST) From: jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu (jim roche) Subject: BMW: Stock Disc OK - Thicker Disc - Be Carefull >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:05:30 -0500 >From: "Timothy C. Bond" >Subject: BMW: Are Lester disks stock BMW? > >Dear Prezz'z: > A prospect of mine wants to replace his worn rotors >with floaters. He currently runs Lester's on his '77. > Does any past Lester owner know whether stock BMW >rotors are the stock rotors for Lester's as I suspect? > If so, I would guess that the shallow dish EBC >replacement floaters for dual disk wire wheels of the >'70's would bolt up but I'd like the collective wisdom >of the IBMWR on this swap. > I recall someone did a disk swap to floaters for a >snowflake perhaps from a company that supplies the >carrier as opposed to BRAKING CO disks that use the >BMW carrier. Wazzat you Don E? TIA, Bondo > ___________________________________________________ > > Tim(Bondo)Bond Versailles.KY.USA 606-873-6686 > Wire Wheels Motorcycle Service > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels > ___________________________________________________ > >------------------------------ Dear Tim, the stock disc work just fine on Lesters and that was the original idea. What happened however was that people begain to switch over to lighter disc (Harry Hunt Plasma Coat) or faster stopping cast iron disc (Brimbo) -- both types of which were thicker than the 5mm std. BMW stainless disc. If a person did this thick disc switch to BMW 1981 and own bikes which have the twin puck Brembo calipers then all could/can be made to work OK. If a person switches to thicker disc for whatever the reason on a 1974 to 1980 BMW with its single puck (self centering) calipers then things are suddendly quite different. If these thick disc have simply been installed to a std. BMW hub carrier -- then look out, now that the deck height of the disc has been extended 2mm or so to the outside of where a stock unit would rest the pads must now try to cock in their saddle in a effort to self center -- something that they now simply can't do. Cocked attack angle of the puck, to the pad, to the disc, is now askwed and the only way to fix it is too eliminate one half of this new distance (width) by shaveing some off at the hub to wheel face, or to re-cut and re-mate the flat attack angle of the brake pad paired surfaces. If installing aftermarket disc on a earlier airhead make sure they are the same width as stock -- or be prepared for some headackes. Best, Jim(Dr.Curve)Roche jrocheNoSpam@NoSpammailer.fsu.edu high performance old twins http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jroche/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:38:51 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger Subject: BMW: RE: Are Lester disks stock BMW? >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:05:30 -0500 >From: "Timothy C. Bond" >Subject: BMW: Are Lester disks stock BMW? > >Dear Prezz'z: > A prospect of mine wants to replace his worn rotors >with floaters. He currently runs Lester's on his '77. > Does any past Lester owner know whether stock BMW >rotors are the stock rotors for Lester's as I suspect? > If so, I would guess that the shallow dish EBC >replacement floaters for dual disk wire wheels of the >'70's would bolt up but I'd like the collective wisdom >of the IBMWR on this swap. > I recall someone did a disk swap to floaters for a >snowflake perhaps from a company that supplies the >carrier as opposed to BRAKING CO disks that use the >BMW carrier. Wazzat you Don E? TIA, Bondo > ___________________________________________________ > > Tim(Bondo)Bond Versailles.KY.USA 606-873-6686 Tim - was me, but it was on the rear of the K bike.. used the standard carrier. So far - works fine. No complaints.. If they have one that fits the carrier you've got I'd say go for it. Do they LOOK like BMW carriers? (I'd imagine that Lester was smart enough to use stock BMW brake parts.. they were a wheel company, not a brake company..) Best, ======================================= Don Eilenberger Spring Lk Hts, NJ, USA deilenbergerNoSpam@NoSpammonmouth.com ======================================= Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:24:29 -0800 From: Jeff Simmonds Subject: Re: BMW: Braided Steel Brake Lines At 01:34 PM 1/5/98 -0500, Harris_Gary/ny_technologyNoSpam@NoSpamexplorer.siny.com wrote: > > >Without starting a debate about using braided steel lines with ABS.... > >For those who have installed them on a K10/11RS: > >- Who made them? > >- Where did you get them? > >- How well did they fit? > >- Any problems? > > >Thanx!! > > >Gary - NYC > > > Flanders Company in Pasadena CA has a wide assortment of stainless steel lines including colors, etc. Good stuff and all fittings, lines, etc. to do the job. and significantly cheaper than pre-fab kits.