From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Sun Jun 1 21:44:22 1997 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:23:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "D. Rodman, MD" To: bmw list Subject: BMW: R1100 Battery replacement? Reply-To: "D. Rodman, MD" Is there a less expensive replacement for the R1100 batteries? In my K100, I modified the bracket slightly and use $35 Sears tractor batteries as a less expensive alternative. Dave. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Tue Jun 10 06:40:38 1997 From: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) To: "Brian Curry" , "Karsten Stig Rasmussen" , "BMWMC" Subject: BMW: Re: Battery Charge 14.4V to provide 10 years life Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:36:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) Karsten has found the answer to our short-lived motorcycle batteries.. :-) Brian said it pretty well: there is more to battery life than charging voltage. For one, the charging voltage should match the battery's "fully charged" voltage (match, not equal). And lead-acid batteries can have a range of voltages, so there is no "magic number". The voltage is dependent on the acid strength. Batteries are designed with different acid strengths for different applications. For another thing, life is often determined by corrosion. Just tore down some corroded batteries today. Overcharge corrodes them a lot. Normal use corrodes them a little. We'd be stupid to make a engine-starting battery which could resist corrosion for 15 years, and you'd be stupid to buy one. It would be very heavy, for the equivalent cranking power. Cranking power depends on plate area, so the number of plates would not change. Corrosion resistance varies with plate thickness. A typical battery lasts five years. Do you want a battery three times the size and weight? Yes, other things come into play, but a "magic" voltage still isn't the answer. Some of the batteries we analyzed today were from vehicles which charge at 14.0V. At Americade last week we saw batteries lasting five years in these vehicles. Some torn-down batteries were from vehicles which charge at more than 14V. How often do you want to have to add water? Higher voltages electrolyze more water. Corrosion (the typical mode of battery failure, barring defects) also depends on grid alloy, and the proper charging voltage will vary with that, too. We make batteries for navigation buoys, and they need to last 20 or 30 years. Believe, me, you don't want one of them in your bike. Other failure modes - vibration? Don't think for a minute that the best charging system in the world will make a battery last 15 years in a Harley-Davidson. Poor maintenance? By driving more water off, more consumers may let the battery dry out. And lastly, how many people really WANT their battery to last 15 years? The chemistry is against you, and in more ways than I've mentioned here. > _____Do BMWs charge "enough" according to this information?_____ I think so. But I can always grab another battery off the rack if I get bored with the one I have! Anton Largiader, Chester Springs, PA Astral Blue '94 K75 BMWBMW, IBMWR, BMWMOA, NMA, K-Whiner #45, and probably more... "Trav'lin' fast, and travellin' lean, on my 2-wheeled, blue and black trav'lin' machine... " - a horrible adaptation of a Jimmy Buffett lyric, "Travelin' Clean", from Before The Beach. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Fri Jul 4 19:18:31 1997 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:52:40 -0500 (CDT) From: viper655NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com (Dr.Robert A. Harms) Subject: BMW: K100 Battery-New-Free To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Reply-To: viper655NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com (Dr.Robert A. Harms) I had to buy a battery for a K100. The K100 was sold but the shipper would not accept the battery. If anyone wants it, its free but you need to pick up the shipping which may make it an unprofitable deal. Its a Sams Club tractor battery which requires very minor mods to the battery tray but fits great. From ibmwrNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com Wed Jul 9 23:22:32 1997 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 23:01:05 -0400 To: bmwmcNoSpam@NoSpamworld.std.com From: Jon Zurell Subject: Re: BMW: Trickle charger for the R1100RT Reply-To: Jon Zurell At 08:20 PM 7/9/97 -0400, Paul Kay wrote: > >Hello, > Does anyone know of a good aftermarket trickle charger that will go into the accessory plug. > >Thanx >Paul M. Kay >pmkayNoSpam@NoSpamearthlink.net Paul, Buy the plug at your dealers or John Deere. Buy the charger at K-Mart. They carry the Exide line which now has a model very similar to the Deltran Battery Tender. You can leave the Exide on all the time and it senses the battery voltage just like the Battery Tender does. Uhhh.... the good part, the Exide unit is about $16 while the best I have found the Battery tender is $46.... but then, it's your choice and your money:) Jon Zurell 96R11RT Everyone is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody. --Mark Twain From largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:56:22 -0400 From: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) Subject: BMW: Re: K-Bike Battery Questions > While servicing my battery last night I discovered that >one cell was 50% charged while all the others were at > 100%. I assume this is the beginning of the end. Yup. Sediment buildup or some other short. > How long and how steep is the trajectory likely to be >(it's 4 years old)? How quickly do I need to move? Very steep, in all likelyhood. Replace it. > Should I replace it with another BMW 25ah or > a 30ah or a Yuasa? Mareg (BMW) makes an 18 or a 25, I think. The Y60 (26 or 28, I think) is the only Yuasa model which fits well. Any is a good choice and they are of similar cost. Anton Largiader, Chester Springs, PA Astral Blue '94 K75 From Flash - DoD #412 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BMW: EDTA for LONG Battery Life In 1991 and again in 1992, the Vintage BMW Club Bulletin had some info about EDTA as a battery additive. I posted this stuff on rec.motorcycles back then after I tried it and found it to work qite well. I now use it in all my new batteries and in old batteries of every vehicle I buy. The only problem I have with EDTA is that I now tend to neglect my bike batteries because they ALWAYS start the bikes just great. And that is something that didn't used to happen with my R80G/S's. Furthermore, I have smaller than stock batteries in them. The battery I refer to just below, on its last legs, treated with EDTA, was finally replaced in May of '94. I treated the replacement with EDTA brand new, before I even added the acid. The stuff below about agitating for a while is crap. Add the EDTA and go for a nice long ride, preferably on a bumpy road. (You needed and excuse to go for a nice long ride anyway, right?) What follows are several articles on the subject, how to use it, how it works, what it is, and a (possible) source for EDTA. Most folks can get some at their local university chemistry department supply "store." The stuff is cheap. A lifetime supply is under $25 (unless you live in a salvage yard). Another anecdote... I treated the (new) battery in Princess Bud Thang's "new" CB360. The following year, I started the bike New Year's Day and warmed it up. I didn't touch it again until the last week in May, almost 6 months later. To my surprise, the battery had enough charge to fire it up on the electric start. The info presented below is a few years old. Therefore many, if not all, of the email addresses are out of date. I KNOW all the ones pertaining to my portion of this are. As usual, there are those who will take issue with this information. To them, I say... "YMMV. Take responsibility for your own actions. The government is not your mother. LIFE doesn't come with any guarantee. And, get over yourself, will ya. The following is presented at face value, as is, without warranty, express or implied, use at your own risk, yadda yadda..." From: dabNoSpam@NoSpamvuse.vanderbilt.edu (The Nashville Flash) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: Prolong the Life of a Lead-Acid Battery Summary: Better Living Through Chemistry Keywords: cheapskate Date: 19 May 92 14:10:45 GMT Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA You can prolong the life of batteries by an additive that prevents sulfation. Supposed to be particularly good for batteries subjected to infrequent use, short trips, or inefficient charging system. Once-only treatment lasts for the life of the (rejuvenated) battery. Obtain some EDTA (tetrasodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate or simply tetrasodium EDTA) from a chemical or lab supply place. This is a chelating agent and (I THINK) used on folks that are going to get an MRI scan. Four (4) grams are divided into approximately equal portions and added to all the cells of a motorcycle battery. Four grams are added to each cell in an automotive battery. Agitate battery frequently for a few days (normal use will do). Finally, give the battery a thorough charge. The article sez that the method works on batteries that work but don't work "well enough" anymore. It says that the earlier in its life you give it the treatment, the longer it will last. It claims that a marginal battery can be restored to useful condition for a period of time "quite often by many years." Being a skeptic, and having access to EDTA, I decided to try this with a four year old battery (that's showing signs of age) in one of my bikes before posting. It worked for me. I haven't been able to use the electric start on that bike for the past year. After treatment, the electric start always works when the motor is hot and sometimes even when cold. Well worth the ten minutes it took to "install." The installation was in February and the battery I thought I would need to replace this summer looks like it will last. ============================================================================ "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle." - Winston Churchill The Nashville Flash - DoD # 412 - -------------------- From: dabNoSpam@NoSpamvuse.vanderbilt.edu (The Nashville Flash) Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles Subject: EDTA - A Chemistry Lesson Summary: Shameless reprint of VBMW reprinted article. Date: 19 May 92 18:58:13 GMT Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA >From Vintage BMW Bulletin, May-June 1992, v20n3 (w/o permission) >From Vintage BMW Bulletin, Nov-Dec 1991, v19n6 Prolonging the Useful Life of a Lead Acid Battery by K.L. Martin, B.Sc.(Hon)(London) Very few lead acid batteries are replaced because they stop working. In almost every case the battery is replaced because it doesn't work _well enough_ anymore. What is not generally realized is that something can be done at this stage which may prolong the useful life of the battery - quite often by many years, and that the same treatment carried out earlier in the battery's life may well have stopped the symptoms from occurring in the first place. The reason for a battery failing is due to the chemical processes which take place in each cell when the battery is not fully charged. Even the slightest discharge condition allows both plates to react slowly with the sulfuric acid electrolyte to form lead ions. It is these lead ions which cause problems; they combine with sulfate ions in sulfuric acid to form highly insoluble lead sulfate. When this coats the plates of the battery, it fails to deliver enough power to be of use. The battery may well be serviceable every other way - only the "sulfating" stops the battery from delivering enough power to be of use. The sulfating can effectively be removed, or prevented, by adding to each cell a chemical called tetrasodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate (often abbreviated to tetrasodium EDTA). This chemical forms co-ordination compounds with many metal ions, including lead ions formed in the discharge cycle of a battery. The compound formed by lead ions and the EDTA ion is not particularly stable in the acid medium of a battery, but when it breaks down again any lead sulfate regenerated tends to drop to the bottom of the cell where it lays harmlessly since it doesn't conduct electricity. Any regenerated EDTA ions are free to continue their work. This is likely to occur if the motorcycle is used just for short trips, is infrequently used, or has at any time suffered from an inefficient charging system. Treating with the chemical can also help keep an original battery in use, and can help in bringing back into use a stored battery. It is also a once-only treatment, lasting the life of the renovated battery. ============================================================================ "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle." - Winston Churchill The Nashville Flash - - DoD # 412 - -------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 12:29:50 PST From: Ed Hackett To: euro-motoNoSpam@NoSpamrigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Subject: EDTA OK, you asked for it! EDTA: N,N'-1,2-Ethanediylbis[N-(carboxymethyl)glycene] tetrasodium salt or more commonly, ethylenediamenetetraacetic acid tetrasodium salt. Even with that impressive name it is classified as non hazardous, so shipping is no problem. Pack it so that it can't get out, so that if it does, nobody gets over exited about it. Just send it, but don't make any mention of what is in the package. Saying the package contains chemicals will run up the red flag. EDTA gets a big 0 in all classes of hazards(health, flammability, and reactivity). It is a minor skin irritant, so if you get any on you, rinse it off. The LD 50 in rats is 2000mg/Kg so you would have to eat over a quarter pound to do yourself any harm. It is used as a chelating agent in reactions (that's why I have a bottle) and as treatment for heavy metals poisioning. It binds the metals in the blood so they are no longer active and your body can remove them by its' normal means. Ed Hackett edhNoSpam@NoSpamwheeler.wrc.unr.edu The Desert Research Institute DoD #0200 WMTC BMWRA DIOC Reno, Nevada (702) 673-7380 KotLS KtoLE DotD #0003 I'm not really a chemist, I'm just one of 900SS K100RS 501 CAMEL them motorsickle sonsabitches. __=o&o>__ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0500 From: leavittNoSpam@NoSpamcs.UMD.EDU (Mr. Bill) David Braun wrote: > [deletia] > Subject: Re: EDTA Source > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:25:58 GMT > > You can buy 500g of EDTA for a reasonable cost from Bostick & Sullivan. > Their ph# is 818.785.4130. Call between 4:30 PM and 7:00 PM California time. Bostick & Sullivan moved this past September. Their new contact info is Bostick & Sullivan PO Box 16639 Santa Fe, NM 87506-6639 Tel: (505) 474-0890 Hours: 9:00am-5:00pm, Mountain Time Zone I bought 500g about a year ago. It came to about $17, inc. shipping/handling. You can find more than enough folks here on rec.moto, et al, to sell or give away what you don't need. Mr. Bill - -- Bill Leavitt, leavittNoSpam@NoSpamcs.umd.edu | "Blow it out your ass, motorcycle man! AMA, ICOA, Lemans, KTC, DoD #224 | I am THE DEVIL, do you UNDERSTAND?" HON: 82 CBX, 79 CX500C, 76 CJ360 |________--Frank Zappa, "Titties & Beer" SUZ: 82 GS850G, 76 RE5, 2-75 RE5 KAW: 72 H2 "More bikes than brains!" =========================================================================== "A radar detector is a tax loophole that you have to buy." - D. Fry David A. Braun - FlashNoSpam@NoSpamDeathStar.org - DoD # 412 http://www.deathstar.org/~flash/ Bike Manuscript Works, LLC, Ft. Collins, CO 80527-1643 =========================================================================== From "ynotfix" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:14:20 -0700 Subject: BMW: Re: EDTA for LONG Battery Life Flash; EDTA: Tri-Ess Sciences Inc 1020 W. Chestnut St. Burbank, CA. 91506 818-848-7838 800-274-6910 2oz.....$2.10 4oz.....$3.50 8oz.....$5.85 100lbs........$525.00 (Recomended for those "REALLY BIG" batteries) Tony A. From Brian Curry Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BMW: New Battery Query At 11:00 PM 9/12/97 -0700, John Jensen wrote: > >My new battery arrived yesterday, and I added the acid today. The >literature says the battery is shipped fully charged but dry. Now that I >have added the acid, can I assume there is no need for further charging? > >Frank Glamser "There are old motorcyclists, and there are >Hattiesburg, Mississippi bold motorcyclists, but there very few old, >'92 K75RT BMW RoM bold ones." > > > My partner has convinced me to try his approach to battery life/maintence >instead of the usual routine. He gets twice the life from his battery than >I got from mine and I did the charger routine before the first ride and >between rides before I started the bike etc. > Anyway his 'secret' is to NOT CHARGE THE BATTERY before putting it in the >bike. He just waits at least 1.5 hrs after putting the acid in the >battery, (so it will cool down), then he takes the bike on a ride for at >least 1 hour of at speed driving. That's it, no pre-charging, no in >between charges (unless the battery loses enough energy that it won't start >the bike). > My own theory is that the voltage from the charging system on the bike >presents different amounts of voltage and current than what the small >portable chargers produce. It would seem that the very first initial >charge to the battery is what sets up the maximum voltage and energy >storage capacity for each cell in the battery. Since the voltage and >current produced by the charging system in your bike will be what the >battery sees almost all the time it only makes sense to also make it the >initial charge as well. It's somewhat analogous to Ni-Cad batterys, where >the first thing you must do is FULLY charge them before use (that is if you >want to get the maximum life out of them). While it may "make sense," it is not true. Sorry, to burst your bubble on the theory, but electrons are electrons no matter what the source. Since Battery Man, has not chimed in, but I have talked to him, some battery chemistry lessons. A Dry Charged battery, has postive and negative plates of Lead, and Lead Dioxide. When you pour the acid in, it reacts with the some of the lead forming lead sulphate. This is the source of that heat. When a battery is "fully charged" the plates are lead and lead dioxide. When the battery is discharged the plates, or at least one of them is lead sulphate. Lead sulphate is bad. If you leave it there long enough it will harden, and it cannot be converted back to lead, or lead oxide. Lead suphate kills batteries. It is the source of the term that the battery is "sulphated." It is why dead batteries due to sulphate are white. So, you have just poured acid into the battery, some of the lead and lead dioxide have changed to lead sulphate. So the "dry charged" battery is only "partially charged" after you add the acid. If you do not fully charge the battery converting the lead sulphate back to what it started life as, it will sulphate and have reduced capacity from the start!! Yes, the bike charging system may be able to supply enough electrons to fully convert the lead sulphate on the plates back to lead and lead dioxide. And then maybe not. It depends on how fast, and how long you operate the vehicle after installing the new battery. On an R bike, forget it. There is no way, you will get that thing fully charged using the stock system. The stock system will just barely return a fully charged battery to fully charged after the bike is started. A "trickle charger" will force enough electrons into the battery over a 18-24 hour period that the lead sulphate will be forced to convert. The battery gassing is a sure sign of this. A Battery Tender will do a superb job, forcing current in, in a controlled manner until the lead sulphate is converted, the voltage rises to "fully charged" and it cuts back to float, just barely making up for the self discharge current. I beleive you partners experience is due to other factors beyond, or in addition to what you have described. What they are, I do not know. What I do know is that Chemistry applies to everyone. Ignore it at your own risk. Good luck with you battery life test. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "Without data, you're just another opinion." | | -Jim Clarke (Manager, engine controls Ford Motor Co.) | | | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA | | The 9.25 cents a minute guy, USA SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From Brian Curry Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BMW: New Battery Query At 01:16 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Frank Glamser wrote: > >My new battery arrived yesterday, and I added the acid today. The >literature says the battery is shipped fully charged but dry. Now that I >have added the acid, can I assume there is no need for further charging? Never, never assume..... Yes, charge it. The plates are formed, but charging after filling truly forms the plates and it will increase the battery life noticeable. And charge it, using a trickle charger, or something that charges at less than 10% of the Amphour rating, but in amps, not a "Battery Booster" which will fry it. Hopefully, Mr Battery, Anton, will chime in here with more of the technical details of why you need to. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | "Without data, you're just another opinion." | | -Jim Clarke (Manager, engine controls Ford Motor Co.) | | | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA | | The 9.25 cents a minute guy, USA SoD #23 | | | | KGN- Improving Lives Around The World | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From peterkrNoSpam@NoSpamms.com (Peter Krynicki) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:40:14 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: battery tenders Michael Lipke wrote: > > Claims for battery tenders are pretty astounding. Do they extend battery > life as much as claimed? If they do, looks like payback would be in as > little as two years. I was meaning to post something about this. I have three BMWs and don't ride enough all year round to keep the batteries charged. The result was that I was buying one new battery a year. Since buying a Battery Tender (tm) two years ago all three batteries are fine. I bought the tender and two additional sets of leads that attach permanently to the terminals. Then an overnight charge (tend) once a week in the winter and the batteries are all set when I ned them. Hth ymmv etc. Pjk From Tom Coradeschi Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 9:54:39 EDT Subject: Re: BMW: Re: EDTA for long battery life Bruce Keahey: >But I'm confused about something else. In one it calls for 4 grams >of EDTA divided among all the cells in the battery, and in another it >calls for 4 grams PER cell. Can anyone clarify? Motorcycles: 4g / battery Cages: 4g / cell tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> From "John f. Greusel" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: BMW: Re: EDTA for long battery life Or, Stop by your local photo lab and ask for 50ml of C41 bleach starter. It keeps the silver in suspension in the process. There's a bit of potassium used as a preservative but it hasn't seem to hurt. Check the MSDS to be sure the formula is truly EDTA. There are many varieties of C41 formulas around now but I believe the bleach starter always has EDTA as its primary ingredient. John Greusel R60/2 1967 From EsquireTedNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BMW: Schumacher Battery Tender In a message dated 97-09-16 14:51:54 EDT, you write: >The "Battery Tender" brand unit fetches about $50 from the cheapest mail >order house. Walmart sells a functionally identical unit by Schumacher >for about $24. Worked great for me last winter. Same features, same >output, same LED indicators. And for those of you not blessed with climate-controlled garages, Schumacher also makes a battery tender made to be attached to your car battery and fed electricity through a cord snaked through the grill and attached there. Same price, ~$25, but damn if it doesn't look like a huge hunk of plastic (no idiot lights - it hums when it is on :)) On my K75 it worked all winter long, balanced on a footpeg under a (ventilated) cover. ~~~~~~~~~ http://users.aol.com/esquireted/moto.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ted Verrill - EsquireTedNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com - TedVNoSpam@NoSpamFool.com - K1100RS (Zephyr) From Dave Thompson Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:10:18 Subject: BMW: Yuasa Additive-EDTA? We'll beat a dead horse yet again, but from a different angle... I'm curious...My new Yuasa battery comes with an additive described as a special chemical called Sulfate Stop, that has been added to reduce sulfate crystal deposits. Its appearance is described as a white powder chemical that may be visible before the battery is activated, but dissolves once electrolyte is added. Is it, or is it not, the magical EDTA? It seems to look like a duck, and quack like a duck, and waddle like a duck, so just maybe...??? IMWTK! And...IF it is, Tom C may have to rethink this one: Charles Sturtevant: >What did I miss in this EDTA thread? If this stuff is >so good for batteries, why don't the manufacturers put >it in new batteries? Is this a secret plot by battery >manufacturers to give us less dependable batteries? Don't you love it when people answer their own questions? tom "bookawitz" coradeschi <+> tcoraNoSpam@NoSpamskylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> Tom, and all, this is not meant as a shot, I'm really just curious! All disclaimers apply. I have no interest in the company, or any dealership, nor do I have any relatives who do, yada, yada, yada... From Mark Luesse Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:14:26 -0400 Subject: Re: BMW: K-bike Push Dan Barks asked: > Due to the fuel injection sytem on a K-bike and the need for the injectors to > fire and fuel pressure to be right - can you push start a K-bike with a dead > battery? Well yes & know. If your battery is too low to crank the starter but still has an 11 volt or better surface charge, you can bump start it. If your voltage drops much below 11 volts, the fuel system will not come to life. Since batteries typically loose cranking amp capacity (not voltage) as the age, bump starting can be a handy get me home trick. Incidentally, my OEM ba is on it's 7th year without additives, maintenance chargers or for that matter particularly good care, but I do ride regularly (read commute). Just got lucky on this one I guess. FWIW Mark Luesse 90' K75s From "Chuck (Jack) Hawley" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:04:21 -0500 Subject: Re: BMW: K-bike Push IFR10NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com wrote: > I know I'm asking for it by posting a message like this but here > goes... > > Due to the fuel injection sytem on a K-bike and the need for the > injectors to > fire and fuel pressure to be right - can you push start a K-bike with > a dead > battery? > > Dan Barks > #72899 Yes but you have to push the starter button to get the fuel pump to run. Jack. - -- Charles (Jack) Hawley Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:50:22 -0400 (EDT) From: BenByronNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: Alternative Battery (cheap) Rob, And several others who wanted to know more about the battery that I use. The number on the battery is a Sears DieHard # 9664. It says Lawn/Garden on the front. Hope this helps. They have two sizes that I saw. One is tall and narrow and would not fit. The battery that does is roughly the same width and height as the standard BMW battery, just 3/4" less thick from fron to back, as mounted in the MC. I have roughly 2,000 miles on the battery and it works great. Best Ralph Robertson Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:46:30 +0000 From: "Wes Jackson" Subject: Re: BMW: Battery Replacement > Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:43:48 -0600 > From: "Jack L. Casner" > I am very much interested in the battery thread. I am restoring an > R90/6 and would like to replace BMW specific battery with a sealed, lawn > tractor type. This is both because of cost and acid corrosion. > > Is there a ready-made battery holder out there? > I've been using the garden tractor batteries in my bikes for some time now, as have most of the BMW riders I know. On my /5 and your /6 it's quite easy to adapt. I took out the spacer between the battery box and the rear fender, moving the battery box back all the way. I had to make side pieces to reconnect to the frame. The battery slips right in, On my '81 it was more difficult as the battery box is more solidly put together. I had to eliminate it altogether and make a (wooden) platform for the battery to sit on. Once the initial work is done, I buy the Eveready garden tractor battery from Costco for CAN$19.97 plus tax. I find that with normal care (using a trickle charger when not running the bike for a while) they seem to last about 4 years, same as a Yuasa which sell here for CAN$180. YMMV Wes Jackson Nanaimo BC Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:57:03 -0500 (CDT) From: viper655NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com (Dr.Robert A. Harms) Subject: BMW: Hard Case Rubber Batteries There was a write up in the Vintage BMW bulletin just received about a (as I recall) California company that was manufacturing both 6 and 12 volt hard rubber case batteries for vintage /2 and /3 BMW's as well as British bikes. There was a stipulation that the minimum purchase was 20 or so but these would be a great item for suppliers (Mr X of Ohio-attention) to stock as the current "Exide" made in India repros are aweful. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:09:02 -0500 (CDT) From: viper655NoSpam@NoSpamix.netcom.com (Dr.Robert A. Harms) Subject: BMW: Hard Case Batteries (more) Manufacturing Technologies Company 310-358 1620 -532-0995 fax 6v 18ah 3.5x4.75x6.45 12 (same size) amp rating not stated emaol mtcusa66NoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:48:34 -0500 From: Jon Zurell Subject: BMW: Black Panther Batteries Fellow Presses: FWIW Black Panther Predator Batteries have a web site at: http://www.blackpanther.com/predatr1.htm Jon Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:32:10 -0500 (EST) From: LegalRNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: Re: BMW: BMW battery tenders Hi Buddy, Here's what I found out from Deltran. The Deltran charges your battery NoSpam@NoSpam 1.25 amps to 14.6 volts. Then it maintains your battery with a miliamp charge. If the battery goes below 13.6 volts the 1.25 amp charge kick in until it reaches 14.6, and so on. The Schummacher [the one we're discussing] is essentially a trickle charger that automatically cuts off at some point. It does not maintain the battery, but if the battery's charge drops to some determined point it kicks in again, and on and on. According to the folks at Deltran, the constant recycling of the No. 2 contestant adversely affects the life of the battery. The maintainence miliamps charge does not. The Deltran is guaranteed for 5 years. I don't know about the Schummacher. Well there you have it, I've kept my part of the bargain. You like the Schummacher for $26 and I've opted for (2) Super Smarts at $46/each. Nice thing about America is that "you pays your money, and takes your choice". Everybody's happy. Incidentally, the offer of a good steak and a cold beer (or equivalent) still stands. I'll be looking for you at the Georgia Mountain Rally in May 1998. Best, Larry Miller Wallingford, VT Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:07:12 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: Battery Tenders in the UK At 11:31 AM 11/21/97 -0000, Mike Barnett wrote: >Prezzes, > >I've been sort of following the latest thread on Battery Tender vs Trickle Charge vs BMW charger vs KFC. I am wondering whether there are any products on the UK market (240v/50Hz) that will care for my batteries more lovingly than the trickle charger that I currently use (but only when the batteries go flat). Anybody got any suggestions/recommendations? I checked with Deltran. (Make of BT) Yes, they do make them for 240V/50Hz. They have a 3-4 week lead time. They seem to be Internet challenged, but they do have a FAX number 904-736-9984 If you can, find a local provider of "automatic chargers" that use LED/lights to indicate when they are charging and floating go for it. And if you want to go real cheap, put the trickle charger on a time with it charging 15 minutes a day. Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:57:23 +0000 From: "Bert Pharis" Subject: Re: BMW: Where to get Deltran Battery Tender On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:15:08 -0500, Kevin Green wrote: > Hello All, > > Since the most recommended battery tender is the Deltran model, I have been > searching the local auto stores for one. As of yet I have not been able to > find one at Auto Zone or Napa. Napa did have their own version of automatic > battery tender for $47. Anyone know what autostore has them or perhaps an > online source. Kevin and list, I shopped the Deltran a few months ago and found the following: The best advertised price was about $44 from Competition Accessories. High volume wholesale is about $36. I got this from a local car collector who bought 50 at this price. His source would not sell to me in smaller volumes. I purchased five through a local dealer who ordered through Tucker Rocky. He came close to the CA price, which was good enough for me and a few friends who bought together. IMHO, the Deltran is to chargers as Valentine is to detectors....worth the difference. Regards, Bert Pharis, Canfield, Ohio 98 K1200RS Porsche SCCA GT2 914-6 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 05:27:26 -0500 From: willoNoSpam@NoSpamwebtv.net (Willoughby Rhodes) Subject: BMW: Re: BMW part# for Deltran Battery Tender Both to (1) come to the aid of those of us who are screwdriver-challenged, and (2) to make money, (listed in reverse order), this much discussed wonderful unit is now officially BMW listed, and complete w/male accessory plug included and already attached to a set of leads, at your favorite BMW mc dealer. The BMW part number is, # 72 60 1 470 156. Bill Rhodes '95 K75 Grosse Pointe, Mi Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:25:25 -0500 From: Brian Curry Subject: Re: BMW: BMW battery tenders At 08:34 PM 11/22/97 -0600, Frank Glamser wrote: > >Buddy, >The Battery Tender literature claims a cutoff of 13.5v because they claim >gassing begins at 13.8v. When the BT shuts off my battery is at 13.5v. >Perhaps there is a difference. We are picking nits here people... The voltage the battery wants/needs depends on the chemistry. Lead-Antimony, Lead-Calcium and other factors. A good charger will take it to "equalizing" voltage and then back down to "float" voltage. A cheaper automatic charger will not take it to equalizing, it will just take it to float. This brought back visions of the BT booth at the Power Sports Convention. Where they showed that their charger equalized and then went to float, while some competitors did not. In the Electrical Power industry where there are "Battery Rooms" and a single cell can weigh a couple hundred pounds, (Probalby only the Phone company, and submarines have larger batteries) they will "equalize" the battery periodically, and then float it. Either/Any of them are better than boiling the battery with an uncontrolled trickle charger, or sulfating it by letting it self discharge. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | To infuse moral concepts into a political discussion is simply to | | confuse the issue.... Morality is not involved in achieving policy. | | - William Fulbright 1959 | | | | Brian Curry, 1990 Blue K75RTs both coasts, Chester Springs, PA, USA | | SoD #23 | | | Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: AspenFabNoSpam@NoSpamaol.com Subject: BMW: More charger tech-(Nit picking cont'd) Brian Currey writes regarding battery charger/maintainers: >Some additional unasked for info: The battery open circuit voltage is >temperature dependent. It is higher when it is warm, and lower when it is >cool. I am not sure if any of the battery tenders are temperature >compensated. None of the manufacturer's literature that I have seen mention >this. Maybe they do, and they figure it is beyond most consumers. Maybe >they don't. If they do not, they might be "too high" sometimes, "too low" >others, and just "just right" infrequently. And this is another reason we >are picking nits. The Deltran liturature I have states (in really tiny print) that "The output voltage of the unit is temperature compensated which ensures the optimum charge voltage according to ambient temperature." I didn't know (or much care) what this meant till I read Brian's post. Now I understand, so what if it's a nit. Thank you for adding it to your message. -Paul Tavenier Los Altos,CA R100GS Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:11:18 -0800 From: "Max C. McHatton" Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Battery Replacement Jerry Cook wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the reply. I ride my bike every day 50 miles one way. I > dont think i should have any battery charge problems. longest > stretch this year has been 4-5 days without being ridden. So........ > It also starts very fast. less than 5 deconds and its running. > > Did your Panther battery /ABS fail after the 3 weeks sounded like > that was the case. I am just wondering if thepanther is working > cause its new. I let it sit for two weeks at below 40 degrees F. I started it and imediately shut it off. I repeated this five times, and not one ABS "low voltage fault. I let the bike sit for three weeks at below 40 degrees F. I then started it, but it didn't start as easily as normal. I had to crank it for at least ten seconds before it started. It did go into ABS "low voltage" fault. I let it run on high idle for less than 5 minutes and shut it off. I restarted it, and no fault. > Im trying to get my dealer to put a new battery in so I can see if > that is the cause. once It gets over 45 degrees my ABS starts to > work fine. > I had the same situation. The conventional OEM Battery is waranteed for 2 years, pro-rated (as I recall, the Black Panthers warantee is 4 years, and not pro-rated). My bike/OEM battery had the low temp problem when I first bought it in March of 95. the battery was tested, and met or exceeded all specs. It was explained to me that a conventional battery produces less current when it is cold. (I confirmed this theory) What happens in below 40 temps is less current over a constant load results in a voltage drop/decrease (basic ohms law). The reason for the ABS fault is that the ABS processor is very voltage sensative, and the drop in voltage results in a fault that can't be cleared without shuting off the bike and turning it back on. The reason the fault doesn't occur with the Black Panther battery is that it produces over three times the cold cranking amps as the OEM, or any other conventional battery. Therefore, the voltage dosen't drop and the fault doesn't occur. > What is your normal riding pattern like, daily -- weekend - > Since the Failure after the 3 weeks of sitting have you had ant > failures? I normaly ride about once a week for less than 2 hours at a time. This is due to a couple of factors, the main one being a disabling medical condition, called Arachnoiditis. I had a Russell Seat built last month, and I'm hoping that it will allow me to spend more time on the bike. > > Yuasa has a Gel type battery that is probably cheaper, I am looking > at that also, but my bike is under warranty and I think BMW should pay > for a fix. I just dont agree with their response that its OK for it > to blink. I don't think a gel cell battery will solve the problem. Gel cells don't produce any more, and usualy less than conventional lead acid batteries. I read a post last month about a Yuasa "maint-free" battery that someone was having shipped to them "dry". They had to fill it with electrolight when they received it. If it has removable caps or has vents, it isn't truly maint-free! I've used gell cells alot in variouse aplications. some were sealed, and some were not. The ones I've worked with weren't the most reliable batteries I've used. The Black Panther is clasified as a "dry cell" battery. with the exception of aircraft batteries and those used in satalites, the Black Panther is the only battery I know of that can operate inverted(upside-down). > > thanks > Jerry Cook Temple Hills Maryland > AirHead / Oilhead Ready to Rumble with either side. For motorcycle batteries, the Black Panther is truly in a class by itself. Hansens plans on performing variouse real world comparative tests between the Black Panther and other batteries, including the BMW battery. I hope I've been helpul and answered your questions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:10:55 -0800 From: "Jim von Stein" Subject: Re: BMW: Charged and ready Brian Curry wrote: > >At 01:59 PM 12/15/97 -0600, Garry W. Bird wrote: >>>It is worth what it costs. If you use it on your bike all the time, add the >>>cost of a timer to limit it to 15 minutes a day. >> >>Just plug it into your light on your automatic garage door opener, set the >>light for max. (mine=8min.) and go. >> >>I figure that it gets about 20min. or so a day. I put the Porsche on one too. >> >>And yes Brian, I am an Idiot.... > >Yes, Gary I know.... ;);) > >Good scheme BTW. For me, I don't have an outlet on the garage door opener, >and it would be a bit of a run to the charger. But it is a GOOD IDEA!!! ;);) One reservation: some inexpensive chargers allow a slight current drain when the power is turned off if they are left connected to the battery (guess how I know this). I am not an electronic whiz and I don't play one on TV, but if you check the resistance between the connections with the unit unplugged, it ought to tell you something about this. I'm sure if I'm wrong, we'll all hear about it soon. Ride paranoid! Jim von Stein Grants Pass, Oregon 1981 R65 (Deerslayer) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:58:47 -0500 From: largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net (Largiader, Anton) Subject: BMW: Re: Battery Replacement I've been following this thread a bit and may have contributed earlier. I'd like to comment on one part: > > Yuasa has a Gel type battery that is probably cheaper,... > I don't think a gel cell battery will solve the problem. Gel cells > don't produce any more, and usualy less than conventional lead acid > batteries. I read a post last month about a Yuasa "maint-free" battery > that someone was having shipped to them "dry". They had to fill it with > electrolight when they received it. If it has removable caps or has > vents, it isn't truly maint-free! I've used gell cells alot in variouse > aplications. some were sealed, and some were not. The ones I've worked > with weren't the most reliable batteries I've used. The Black Panther > is clasified as a "dry cell" battery. with the exception of aircraft > batteries and those used in satalites, the Black Panther is the only > battery I know of that can operate inverted(upside-down). Yuasa MF batteries (YTX series) can be shipped dry with electrolyte packs. Once "activated" the permanent caps are installed (easier than it sounds) and the battery is then considered sealed forever. It's not a gel battery, just AGM (absorptive glass mat) lead-acid. Gel does usually offer less cranking power than other types. The YTX series are rated "non-spillable" for shipping purposes. I'm not sure what the "dry cell" classification implies. Max, did you mention earlier that the Black Panther is not lead-acid? If it's not, do you know which chemistry it uses? I've been using a YTX20 for a year or two now. A decription can be found on my web page. I have no idea if this would solve your problem, but Jerry - - I'm not too far away and we can swap batteries for a few weeks if you want to find out. The YTX20 is rated at 270 to 300 CCA. If you have the small Mareg battery in your bike I tested my old one (still working well) at 170 CCA. The YTX also operates at a higher voltage than the Mareg. Measure your battery box and tell me what the maximum width is - the YTX20 is slightly wider than the Mareg. My interest in this? None, other than curiosity. I am a very recent ex-employee of Yuasa. ********************************************************* Anton Largiader, Chester Springs, PA largiaderNoSpam@NoSpamworldlynx.net http://members.aol.com/alargiader/index.html '94 Astral Blue K75 Capitol 1000 preregistered ********************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:12:41 +1000 From: Graham Smith Subject: Re: BMW: Re: Battery Replacement #99 At 10:09 17/12/97 -0800, Max hatton wrote to me: >Actualy, as it is classified as a "dry battery", it is the only MC >battery that I know of that can be shipped by U.S. Postal Service. We don't get the Black Panther here in Oz, but we do get the Hunter "Oddyssy". Also made in USA, also "dry" cell, with the same claims as the Black Panther. >I hope you can get one. I've never been so impressed with any battery, >and I believe you would be too. I've researched this quite extensively now. The "dry" cell lead acid batteries use a glass mat impregnated with the acid. If you cut open the cells, it WILL NOT run or leak. They use some speaial stuff that also helps the contact with the 99% pure lead plates. Basically this gives a really good deep cycle and the most important part, they have a really low internal resistance. This provides two VERY good properties. 1) Extremely high discharge rates, or Cold Cranking Current, which is what you guys with the ABS faults on starting need. They are actually rated and tested at 0DegF and 32DegF. 2) They recharge around 50% faster than a normal lead acid battery, which means that after you start your bike, it is topped back up in a very short time. Now the bad side....there's always a downer... These batteries only have about 70% the amp hour rating of a normal lead acid battery. In plain terms, if you left your bike not running with the headlight on, the "dry" cell batteries would be flat in NoSpam@NoSpam15mins and the lead acid wouldn't be flat for NoSpam@NoSpam20 mins. (These are not actual figures, just for explanation) My problem is when I ride escort for the cycle races, I have headlight on high beam, hazards on, two way radio and only sit on about 1500rpm which doesn't appear to be enuf output from the altenator to charge. => I get a flat battery in about 30 mins. The "dry" cell batteries would be worse, BUT after I push start my bike, the battery would not be "damaged" and would charge in half the time of the normal lead acid battery. Oh, the BMW batteries are "Varta" brand. So....when I can get a "dry" cell battery with 40 amp hour rating, I'll be a happy camper.. Regards, Graham. =========== gsmithNoSpam@NoSpamdynamite.com.au ===================== / (?) \ Graham Smith (0) (0) \ \ / BELDIVERS SCUBA CLUB %\-/% ACT BMW MCC - '90 K1 (Blue & Yellow) %%% '88 Lotus Esprit Turbo (Pearl) ======== http://www.dynamite.com.au/~gsmith/ =========== Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:24:19 -0700 From: "Craig Littlefield" Subject: BMW: K12 battery failure The battery on my K12, now 6 weeks old, quit. 2 bad cells. My dealer tells me that the BMW MFG (forgot the name) has batteries built in Germany and in Portugal. The ones from Portugal are failing often. country of origin is marked only on the packaging. Some are DOA. This is not just K12 batteries but all sizes. It was replaced on warranty. Not very comforting. Craig Littlefield blue K12, Tucson AZ